Not to hijack Deb's thread on progressive satin, I'm posting here instead.

In that thread, I wrote:

"Satin for me (the Swede) *always* means only one binding point per warp (or weft) per repeat. All sheds of a 5-end satin are 1 down, 4 up (or vice versa, of course); all sheds of a 6-end satin is 1 down, 5 up and so on. Then there are the interruption factors, of course (which rule leads to "no regular 6-end satin")."

There was a lot more interest on WeaveTech, but as pictures are more fiddly on WT, I thought I'd try to ask here, instead. On WT, Sara v T referred to several books, of which I only own Oelsner. By reading Oelsner (who does not mention the word "shaded"), I tried to make a "shaded satin" on 8 shafts. This is what I arrived at:

Did I understand the construction correctly?

And - should I find a piece of fabric looking like this:

how do I need to think to arrive at "4/4 satin"? How do I know it is not to be regarded as (for instance) a twill derivative ("4/4 twill, stepped 3"), or some sort of compound/combined structure?



What I learned in school a millenium ago was that there is no such thing as 4/4 satin.  True satin takes at least 5 shafts.  Anything reselmbling satin on 4 shafts is technically a twill derivative. 

I don't know if that's changed or not.  I know a lot of biological taxonomy has  . . . ;-)


The 4/4 satin is the fourth (middle one) in the "shading" above. Like a 4/4 twill it takes 8 shafts.


I misunderstood . . . However, that still looks like a twill.  What I also remember from school is that the distribution of tie-down threads should be pseudo-random, that is, not form an obvious pattern or lines, in order to create an overall tone.  I was also taught that there are no fixed number of shafts for a twill -- that is 5/3 is a legitimate twill, as is 1/3. 

Does this make sense?  In other words, my recollection is that to have and 8 shaft satin with 4 under, 4 over you wouldn't step it -- you would change the treadling order to produce a more uniform tone, not a twill line.


Kerstin, you created the shaded satin the way I understand it.  You move in increments from warp faced to weft faced satin (or vice versa).

I think the 4/4 is part of the set of shadings.  I'm not sure I understand your question if you are trying to isolate and name each structure sequence.  They exist as part of the steps of the shading sequence.  

Most of the time I've seen the shading used in the jacquard weaving world.  Shading structures are assigned to a photo that has been rendered down to the same # of grey tones as one has structures.  

The one thing we can be sure of is that contemporary artists, industry jacquards and historical institutes will define the structures differently!


Yes, I understand it is part of the shading. However, as (I suppose) there is no rule that all shades have to be present in a single piece of fabric, and I was given such a piece and tried to analyze it... apart from "keeping an open mind", is there a trick/way of thinking (don't know what to call it) to help me see it is part of a satin... well, "shading", I suppose?

Also, reading the last part of the satins (Oelsner p 38, "Filling satins with extra stitches") - if one took that as a starting point for a "shading", at some point one could end up with a plain weave (I think). Would that still be a "satin", because of how it was developped?


that I am not looking for "the absolute answer", here. What I am after is how we communicate an idea to another weaver, so that the other weaver may "take it an run with it", but preferrably with an understanding of what is going on.

(Although I have mede several successful pieces from *mis*understanding other's ideas, too. Sort of like the old "whispering play": you whisper into your neighbor's ear, s/he whispers what s/he thought you whispered and so on - after 10 or so persons it is time to say "it" aloud...)

Sara von Tresckow

The issue here is whether derived weaves are one of the basic three structures. The short answer is that they are not always.

A basic weave structure is defined as a structure that cannot be derived from another.

A plain weave has simple alternations. Going up the warp thread as it is woven, the sequence is one up, one down. The smallest unit is 2 warps and 2 wefts.

A twill moves left to right in a diagonal, rising by one(or more) weft in the process. The smallest twill unit is 3 warps on 3 wefts - that first warp thread now moves one down, two up -  and as one moves from right to left - second warp two down, one up - third warp one down, one up, one down. The 4th warp thread would repeat thread #1.

A satin is defined as a weave with no contiguous intersections. The smallest weave filling this definition is a 5-end satin - 5 warps and 5 wefts. To obtain no contiguous intersections, a riser different than 1 is needed. Let's use 2 for this example. That basic satin would be warp 1: 4 up, 1 down  warp 2: 2 up, 1 down, 2 up warp 3: 1 down 4 up warp 4: 3 up 1 down 1 up warp 5: 1 up 1 down 3 up

This is textile engineering stuff - from these 3 absolute basic building blocks many derivatives can be designed. In some cases they resemble the original base weave - as in a 2/2 twill or a turned twill piece where the 3/1 and 1/3 combination show easily.

Derived weaves can take more complex forms - the Oelsner book is the best readily available example in English - the section on rib weaves is really derivations of the basic plain weave. The twill section follows the definition and expands on it - steep twills have a riser greater than one, flat twills often are done by moving more than one warp thread in unison as one would do in basket weave.

In Oelsner and other books based on the old German "Bindungslehre", the weaver can interleave two different weaves on alternating warp and weft threads for combined structures. It is possible, as in the case of the satins to add binding points above the non-contiguous ones. The effect of something like the 4/4 example is not that of a satin, but a member of a progression. When this progression is applied to a Jacquard weave, it adds a new color shading as well as a new texture. And NO it won't run out to plain weave because those basic interlacements were not contiguous to start.

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