While I am not currently a drawloom weaver, I think I would like to be. I plan to take a drawloom class to test my interest, but before then I am starting to look for a new (to me) loom which I could, if I later chose to, convert to a drawloom. I currently own an old Lilstina counterbalance, but have had some experience weaving on Glimåkra countermarch looms, and found them wonderful. I am looking for vertical countermarch looms by Glimåkra and Öxabäck, but am also wondering about the Toika Eeva. I would appreciate learning from your experience with these looms and recommendations. Are there other looms you would recommend that I haven't considered?

Thank you,

Gabriela

Comments

Sun, 11/11/2012 - 14:55

Dawn McCarthy

Most swedish style cm looms can be converted.  I highly recommend taking a class, not so much to learn the weave but to practice setting up, changing pattern units, how to thread.  I just blogged about this subject.

Drawlooms can be expensive (unless like Sally you are very handy).  You need different heddles, lingoes and lots more space.  Drawlooms can be quite large!  Tie up for countermarch requires two sets of tie ups.  Two sets of shafts to be threaded.  Weaving is slow, it can be very slow.  Drawlooms can create exquisite designs but before investing, try putting on a couple of very different warps on one first.  Not being a negative Nancy, but it is definitely something you should consider.  I have converted a Toika Liisa and a Glimakra. I built most of the addition myself.  There are not too many resources out there but some good research will help you a lot in choosing the style of drawloom you want.

Sun, 11/11/2012 - 16:03

SallyE (not verified)

I think it depends on whether you will buy or build.   If you will buy, then you can't beat the Glimakra because the draw loom parts are built for it. 

The one I built was put on top of a Varpapuu and I found that loom perfect for the task.  Also, I was able to design a system that has all three types of draw looms (shaft, single unit, saved lashes) available at the same time.  For the pattern I'm doing right now, I use the single unit draw loom pulls to do the side borders and the saved lashes to do the design.  The manufactured systems simply can't do that.

OK, now I'm going to say something that people will jump on me for saying, so get ready:   I prefer the bottom beater to the hung one, especially if you are building a draw loom.  Not having to design my draw loom with that beater hung in the same space as all of the draw loom controls was a great advantage.   People prefer the hung beater because it's heavier, but that isn't necessarily true and you can always add weight if you need to.  The other reason I prefer them is just a matter of geometry - they work better.  This would require a diagram to really explain, but it's all in the arc, and where the arc takes the reed in reference to the breast beam.   If I decide to try to really explain this, I'll start a new thread. 

Sally  (former math teacher)

 

Sun, 11/11/2012 - 16:13

Dawn McCarthy

Sally, I can vouch for the PITA of building around the hung beater!  I don't mind over/under.  It is less effort to beat firmly with the overhung beater and the sway allows less physical effort to push the beater back to insert the next pick.  But - it is personal preference.

I just got finished with my damask runner.  The darned whole system and set up took quite some time - hence my seemingly grouchy comment on time.  I just think is important to stress the lengthy set up of equipment and then warp prep with the drawloom!  

I have an Oxaback Lilla (cute and small footprint cm loom which I LOVE) which can be fitted with the draw device.  Contact Sara at Woolgather's.  No affiliation, just a very happy customer and this loom is a cute as a button and as tough as the Glimakra!

Dawn

Sun, 11/11/2012 - 16:37

SallyE (not verified)

The other thing I've noticed about hung beaters, is that to get the biggest shed you have to hold the beater back from it's natural hung position as you toss the shuttle.   Some people even use elastic chords to do that, but then it takes more muscle when you beat because you are working against that elastic.  

With a hung beater, you don't ever have to do that.  It can rest either back or forward without your holding it in place.

I think it also makes a difference whether we are talking about a jack action or a countermarche.  With a jack action the resting warp sits on the shuttle run, so an over hung beater necessarily lifts the warp as it swings forward, which isn't a good thing.   But with a CM, the resting shed is in the middle of the reed so an overhung beater, as it swings to the fell, doesn't risk raising the warp so much.

 

Sun, 11/11/2012 - 16:44

Joanne Hall

I think that this discussion has convinced you to take a class.  You can come here to Montana, or you can contact Vavstuga.  However, their classes fill up fast, so you need to plan in advance.

[email protected]

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 01:37

Sara von Tresckow

Hanging beaters are meant to be "rocked" when weaving - it becomes part of the weft insertion to push back and lean forward, pulling back and leaning back to beat. When weaving you seldom rest the beater. This becomes very rhythmic over time. The resting position for the hung beater is "not" the "natural" position, but simply the resting position.

If the original thread is looms suitable for drawloom work, jack looms cannot be used anyway.

The thoughts on "raising" warp ends when swinging a beater on a CM or a CB loom are not really relevant.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 02:53

SallyE (not verified)

The thoughts on "raising" warp ends when swinging a beater on a CM or a CB loom ARE relevant.  A beater that raises the warp stretches the warp, and also reduces the weaving area, making it necessary to advance the warp more often.  This is just the reality of the geometry of the arc.  This wouldn't be the case if the rocker were at an infinite height, but that isn't practical!

No, jack looms cannot be used for draw looms.  I only mentioned them because hanging beaters work worse for jack looms than CB or CM looms because of the position of the warp in the reed.

In any case, over the eons people have figured out how to weave in an impressive number of ways and with a great number of different, or few, pieces of equipment.  Personally, I don't like hanging beaters, especially on a draw loom.

 

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 04:01

Joanne Hall

The real problem with a lower beater is when it is on a wide loom, say, wider than 40 or 45 inches.  I have had experience weaving on more than one wide loom with a lower beater and it gave me problems.  Wide beaters are heavier, just because they are wide.  And, a heavy lower beater can be very hard to control when you beat.  It simply falls onto the fell.  In those cases, you need to keep the fell line closer to the beater to avoid this problem.  Then there is less space for the shuttle. The hanging beater gives you a lot more control, especially if you have a wide loom.  I have an 8 foot loom, which has a beater which could be assembled as a hanging beater or it can be attached at the bottom of the loom.  When it was first deliverd they did not send the parts necessary to hang the beater.  So, I started to weave and had to stop after just a few inches and wait for the extra parts to arrive.  I really could not physically do it.  And I was young then.  I put the new parts on to hang the beater and wove for decades on that loom.  The hanging beater made a world of difference and really showed me (in the extreme) the advantages of the hanging beater.  I know that most weavers will not have an 8 foot weaving width, but it did teach me a lesson.

Joanne

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 04:36

Sara von Tresckow

You don't have to like hanging beaters.

Just stop making comments that aren't really true. A properly set hanging beater does not "raise" the warp threads - the beating point falls in the center of the reed when the beater hangs at the correct height. The warp threads are in the same plane as when at rest. At rest, the warp threads do NOT rest on the bottom of the reed, but in the center. A hanging beater is a tool that has worked well for centuries and does not need to be vilified by persons with a different personal preference.

Facts are facts.

 

 

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 21:32

ReedGuy

I don't see how there would be any more stress on the warp than beating on any style loom. Beating will pull on the warp, no matter what loom, I suspect. On a countermarche when the shed is closed it's in the centre of the reed as stated, so clear of the race when beating, if that's the time you beat. When a shed is opened and beating is done on an open shed the warp angles up to the fall line so the leading edge of the beater or reed bottom should never really touch the warp. The shed is more open behind the beater back to the heddles. If you warp does hit than you should adjust the beater forward another pivot point or you have advanced the warp too far. I like to advance my warp so the fall line is 4 inches, maybe a bit more, from the breast beam. This probably varied by loom. In my case I have a race for my flyshuttle so it is wider than a beater without.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 01:08

SallyE (not verified)

Yes, facts are facts, so here are the pictures of how my beater lifts the warp.  I just moved this CM from one part of my house to another, so the shafts aren't set up yet, etc. 

I put a reed into the beater and hung a heavy chord (to show where the warp sits) through the beater, hanging it off the breast beam in the front and the back beam in the back.   Then I adjusted height of the chord so that it is about in the middle of the reed, where the warp should be:

Then I pushed the beater forward towards the breast beam:

As is clear, the beater is lifting the warp.  So, if this isn't supposed to be happening, as Sara says, why is it - truly?   And how do I stop it?

Should I lower the beater so the warp sits somewhere in the top half of the reed?   Should I advance the warp less as reedguy suggests?

Sara - This is a machine we are talking about, no need to take it so personally and call people liers!

 

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 01:08

SallyE (not verified)

Yes, facts are facts, so here are the pictures of how my beater lifts the warp.  I just moved this CM from one part of my house to another, so the shafts aren't set up yet, etc. 

I put a reed into the beater and hung a heavy chord (to show where the warp sits) through the beater, hanging it off the breast beam in the front and the back beam in the back.   Then I adjusted height of the chord so that it is about in the middle of the reed, where the warp should be:

Then I pushed the beater forward towards the breast beam:

As is clear, the beater is lifting the warp.  So, if this isn't supposed to be happening, as Sara says, why is it - truly?   And how do I stop it?

Should I lower the beater so the warp sits somewhere in the top half of the reed?   Should I advance the warp less as reedguy suggests?

Sara - This is a machine we are talking about, no need to take it so personally and call people liers!

 

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 01:49

ReedGuy

You need to move your beater forward, as I also suggested. That's what those notches are up top of the castle where it fulcrums. As you weave this section, you move the beater back a notch every so many throws. If when the beater is all the way forward toward the beam and your rubbing warp, you've advanced too much. And in your photo of the beater rubbing the cord, your pretty much slapping the breast beam with that beater. ;) You should not have the race rise above the breast beam. If I swing a trapeze hard enough, it will surely hit the barn roof to which it is tied. A little light humour. ;) Those notches up top just reduce the interval you have to advance warp, giving you a longer woven section between advancement. You could leave the beater at one position in the middle and weave shorter sections, but don't try to advance the fall line to within 4 inches of the breats beam as the beater has to swing higher. I'm not sure at that high angle it's good for the fabric either, but I'm not wizard on that. ;)

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 01:44

Dawn McCarthy

The beater should also be positioned to hit the fell line in a sweet spot.  If your fell line is too close to the cloth beam then the beater has to arc too far. Overhead beaters are more easily adjusted (in height and distance, farther back or closer to) the fell.  Also, the shaft adjustment on a cm loom can be more varied than that of a jack and the overhead beaters can work with this.  I know my overhead beater sits in a slightly different position for drawloom weaving than it does for regular cm weaving.  I use both both over and under.  I think the raising of the threads in the picture above would only happen if the fell line were too close to the breast beam and/or if the beater is set too high.  All that is required is a small adjustment.   As the threads are raised and lowered the threads need to sit in the middle and the arc of the beater (upper or lower) not be too extreme as to cause this deflection.  CM looms do not require a shuttle race so the threads open mid reed and the smooth floor of the shed replaces the race.  There are a couple of looms where the angle of the reed/beater stays in a vertical position no matter the arc of the top of the supports.  If my beater raises the threads I adjust the fell line and possibly the beater.  For drawloom weaving I keep the beater farther back as it gives a little wider shed, when I advance a regular warp I can move the beater from a close proximity to farther back to maximize weaving space before needing to advance the warp.  I don't get too bogged down in all this, I can make quick adjustments and just enjoy weaving.  I am so used to using both I don't really give it too much thought anymore (Dawn who has 3 looms with overhead and one with both)

 

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 01:54

ReedGuy

Pretty much the same info. :) Although I have a race because I use a fly shuttle. And it came in handy when hand shuttling a really wide warp where I had color changes so often and it was double weave with a fold. ;)

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 02:06

Dawn McCarthy

Reed Guy - I must have just missed your post!

Dawn

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 02:29

SallyE (not verified)

Thank you both, I'll try that.   It makes sense!

 

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 09:12

ReedGuy

Dawn I think we hit save at the same time. I was slightly quicker. That's a laugh in itself though, with me on dial-up connection. :D

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 23:11

Joanne Hall

You might note that the Finnish looms do not come wtih a vertical countermarch.  And used Glimakra looms can come with either vertical or horizontal countermarch.  Some used Glimakra looms only have the counterbalance tie-up and they are usually less expensive.  So, then you can purchase the vertical countermarch.  Note that you can add the drawloom without the countermarch and use counterbalance tie-ups.  The usual tie-up for the drawloom is four or six ground shafts and you can tie that up counterbalance.  It is the 5 shaft satin that is hard to tie up counterbalance. 

Joanne

Tue, 08/06/2013 - 03:56

Hoppla Weaves

Thank you all so much for the good advice. I ended up buying a second-hand 135-cm Glimåkra counterbalance loom that had been converted to a horizontal countermarch. I am glad the former owner saved the counterbalance pulleys because I am planning to try to set up a Smålandsväv attachment using the pulleys and some elastic from inner tubes, similar to what I used in my drawloom class at the Vävstuga. The class was wonderful and I am hooked.

Needless to say, I am keeping my eye out for an affordable drawloom attachment. No hurry. The Smålandsväv endeavor will keep me occupied for a good while.