Each of you should post your proposed process here and get some feed back before dyeing.  We can maybe save you some runs and we can all learn for each other.

Comments

Mon, 03/14/2011 - 17:28

Karren K. Brito

Mary and I were working on Google Documents while Weavolution was off-line and I have copied this here, the original is here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ngBVlEoWFJBH4_1sbhECR_Dk4hkVkTOs7vU7WaMQHyg/edit#  Here it is hard to tell who wrote what.

MARY’S PROPOSED PROCESS

1. weigh out my dry fiber and mark it on band, soak fiber with surfactant --just soft water

2. take the dry weight of fiber (5g) and multiply by 1% (.01)
    5g x .01 = .05g      dye powder (use a wax paper cone)
All 1% stocks are made by dissolving 1.0g of dye into 100mL of water, no formula calcutations required here.
3. in a flask, pour a little water, then add the dye from the wax paper.

4. add water to hit the 100ml mark  Make sure the dye  dissolves before you add all the water.

5. Repeat for each of the 3 colors

6. Take 58 ml of gold, 29ml turq., 13ml magenta - this now gives me 100ml of 1% stock (cover & store)  Good!

7. Calculate stock vs. WOG
    5g x .01 = .05 / 58 (gold) / 58  = .086 (not sure how to weigh these three weights on the scale)

    5g x .01 = .05 / 29 (turquoise) / 29 = .172

    5g x .01 = .05 / 13 (magenta) / 13 = .384
Since you already have mixed the 3 colors and the result is 1% stock of olive, you only have to do one calculation:
If WOF = 5.03g, and we know DOS  = 0.45%
substituting into the formula   5.03g X 0.45%/1% = 5.03g X 0.45 =2.26g of olive stock

8. Pour these 3 measured amounts from #7 into one jar (is there water in this jar now, or do i add it after, and how much?)  You just measure  the amount of olive stock once, no water is added.

9. Measure pH, and add Glauber Salt (2g - 10g) and Acetic Acid (2g) and A. Set (.5-5g)
    Io  think you mean g/L  for all of these.  This means if you  are adding 2g/L of Glauber’s salt and you have 5L of water you will measure 2g/L X 5L = 10g.  Also you need to pick a number in this range for each of the aux.  

10. Remeasure pH and add auxiliaries to balance pH to 4.5  Only acetic acid and sodium acetate are used to adjust the pH.


11. Add fiber for 10 minutes  How big is the dye bath? 100mL 300mL. 1000mL???

12. Remove fiber, stir in dye, add fiber, let sit for 10 minutes

13. Start heat - i.  I thl nk it is simncrement 1 degree C per minute to 85 degrees C (check eyou were trying to make it.very 10 minutes and lower or raise as needed to achieve the 1 degree per minute)

14. Once at 85 degrees C keep at this temp for 40-60 minutes, (put thermometer jar)

15. Let cool back to 40°C, remove fiber, let dry

Please let me know if i'm missing anything or if it's good to go! i need to buy acetic acid.


Mon, 03/14/2011 - 19:06

Artistry

I didn't realize that we were to make a 100mls. of the olive stock solution and then use that solution for each skein. It makes sense now since we want to take the color mixing out of the equation for right now and concentrrate on the other variables. however, I mixed the dye for one skein. So just for fun could you check these calculations before I start over again, lol!

5.1(WOF) x .45(DOS) =22.95mls of dye round up 23 mls. 58% gold ( 22.95 x.58 = 13.31), round down 13.mls. 29%Turq. (22.95 x .29 = 6.65) round up 7.mls, 13% Mag. (22.95 x .13 = 2.9) round up 3mls/ so, 13mls.+7 mls.+ 3mls.= 23 mls.

I will redo the test color solution tomorrow to be uniform for all the skeins. but here is the process I followed today.

1-MIx 3 stock solutions. 2-weighed fiber.3- attached tyvek, 4-wetted out fiber (4 hrs) 5-mixed glaubers salt - 1 grm per 2.5 liters, abegal set 1/4 tsp per 2.5 liters. 6-Took ph. from tap water(5.3) 7-mixed salt and A. set in jar 8- took ph (5.0) 9- add acetic acid 28% 1 ml per 500 mls. plus sodium acetate 1/4 tsp. per 500 mls. 10- take ph. (4.7) 11- add silk and take ph after 10 mins. (4.7) 12- mix dye - 13- remove silk 14- add dye    15- add fiber and hold 10 mis before heating, take ph (5.0) although the color of the dye could have made a false reading. 16-  put jar in pot and start heating slowly over 90 mins. MIne heated too quickly rising  30 degrees the first 10 mins. ( 80degrees) I turned it down and held in the seventiy /eighty range then slowly to 90 where it remained for "dwell time". Lifted and stirred every 10 minutes. 17 - cool down 18 - look for exhaust and test ph.  

waiting for the cool down before checking for leveling but surprisingly enough it's looking pretty level right now. The quick rise in temp. has me concerned, i have  electric hot plates.

 

 

Mon, 03/14/2011 - 19:37

Karren K. Brito

Cathie,

When I do this math

5.1(WOF) x .45(DOS) =22.95mls

I get 2.295mL.  Very common error, right numbers, wrong decimal point. Common sense can help you catch these kind of errors; 0.45 is about 1/2 and half of 5 is 2.5, not 25.  If you used this much dye you will have a strong olive color, not a very pale one. Strong colors are easy to level ;).  Show us your skein, make Mary feel good.

 

You can sometimes slow the rate of rise by having more water in the bath outside the jars, until the jars float.  Anything you can put under the pot, between it and the heating element?

Mon, 03/14/2011 - 21:17

Karren K. Brito

Cathie what volume of dyebath did you use?

  You're dyeing an 8/2 spun silk right? Mary, I think, is working with 20/2 silk and had questions about the bath volume.

Mon, 03/14/2011 - 21:26

Mary Rios (not verified)

i'm using 8/2 - i switched last minute when i realized how many wraps i'd need to make per skein!

Tue, 03/15/2011 - 00:42

Artistry

It was a total of 273 mls, 23 mls. For dye stock then 125 mls each of the glaubers salt solution and A. set solution. Yes I'm using a8/2 How much of the olive stock solution should I use with 1skein and what should the dye bath volume be?
Tue, 03/15/2011 - 03:01

Karren K. Brito

Ok, will one of you with the 8/2 silk take some pictures to help here.  I'd like to see one skein in 100mL of water, in 250mL and maybe 500mL. I'm looking to see how much is needed to cover  the skein and have room to move it around.  We always want to use the least amount possible but we need to move the skein to get level dyeings.

I make up one thing I call dyebath, it has everything in it except the silk and the dye.

 

I measure the volume of the water in liters, not mL, then add the appropriate amount of Glauber's salt, A.Set, some sodium acetate and then acetic acid.  Check pH and adjust.  Now this is my dyebath.  From this I measure out the volume, say 250mL, that I will use for each jar for dyeing.  What's left keeps for another dyeing session, and I'm ready for the next color.

What color did you get Cathie?

Tue, 03/15/2011 - 13:33

Artistry

Here is the very tangled but dry skein from yesterday. although it's darker in the picture I would put it at 6/.This is the wrong formula sample. This had 3 figure 8 ties and still tangled any suggestions?

Tue, 03/15/2011 - 13:55

Artistry

this  are the pint size jars, left 100mls. right 200mls.

Tue, 03/15/2011 - 13:58

Artistry

pint size jars left 250mls. and right 300 mls.

Tue, 03/15/2011 - 14:47

Artistry

sorry forgot the skeins . left 100mls right 200 mls.

Tue, 03/15/2011 - 14:51

Artistry

Can't seem to get all four on one message. left 250 mls. right 300mls.

Tue, 03/15/2011 - 23:28

Karren K. Brito

Based on what I'm seeing I'd probably go with 250mL.  With 200 mL I see a bit of silk sticking out of the water, with 300 no room to move with out splashing stuff, important stuff, out. 

Skein doesn't look too tangled to me but I'm not trying to use it.  Did you snap it while wet?  How did you move the skein?  Up and down  or stirred? 

to reduce tangleing you try a different method of moving the skein in the dyebath or add more figure 8 ties.  I'd opt for different movement.

 

You did get an olive color but not a pale one :(

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 13:19

Karren K. Brito

Cathie, could you please make a yarn chip of the skein you dyed and than see if you can come up with the Munsell color notation for it.

Folks, we need to be doing this for every color we dye.  It is the essence of what we are doing.

  Today we are just practicing getting the notation, tomorrow the notation will help guide our next dyeing. No one is born good at this, some people practice and get better.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 16:54

Artistry

Yes, while I'm dyeing this afternoon i'll do a wraping with Munsell notation of the dark skein. In the meantime here is my second sample which is looking level to me. I don't want to notate  the second sample yet because I found the wrapped chips looked darker than the loose skeins for the first exercise. However, will do if you want. The skein below looks darker than it actually is. In it's present state 8/.

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 19:08

Artistry

I lost one of the pixs here, but I put this chip as 5GY 6/2. It's laying against the 6/ and5/ chips. Karren do you want me to wrap the 2nd sample or wait to see if the next two skeins match, then wrap all three? Or wrap and notate as I go?

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 19:13

Artistry

I forgot to mention to those who don't know that the above is the wrong test color. I made a mistake in the calculations and came out much darker than should be. This sample had 23 mls of dye in it!

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 19:33

Karren K. Brito

Cathie, that skein doesn't look very level to me in the photograph, but you can see it in person what do you think?

Might as well wrap as you go.  It is a good test of levelness. Can't tell much in the skein- for example if colors match, what the Munsell notation is, levelness....  Each chip should have Munsell notation and formula for the color.  Some people use the return address labels if you want to print formulas from the computer.

Can you post-calculate the DOS for this skein?  Then you can use it as a DOS study.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 19:35

Karren K. Brito

Are you all getting the same color as Cathie?

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 19:41

Mary Rios (not verified)

Karren, to get me down the road, can you please tell me how to make a batch of dyebath - will all the measurements i need - if i need to calculate something, would you please indicate that as well. i'm stopped in my tracks = frozen...! : )

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 20:11

Artistry

Yes when I look at the skein it looks level and of light value. I will wrap it and see how it looks then.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 21:02

Karren K. Brito

I was looking at the one already wrapped on the board.  Does it look level to you?

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 21:13

Artistry

The board above looks level to me in person but not above. But I am a newbie! As I look at the chip below I feel that it is darker at each twist of the fiber, but it still looks level to me too. This is really hard not being able to hand it to you and have you tell me! What do you think and also the notation which is 5G 8/2?

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 21:52

Karren K. Brito

Yes, I think that 5G 8/2 looks good.  The value is where I expected it to be now.  I expected it to come out on 5YG but that could be the color of the substrate or a slight mis-measurement, we'll see what the others get in hue.  So now on to repeat it.

We sure do have limitations between the cameras and monitors, but it is ok.  We are trying to develop your eye, not mine.

Would you agree that this is a pale neutral color? why is a neutral and not just a pale green?

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 21:56

Artistry

To answer your question if I work backwards with 23mls. as the dye amt. and 5.0grams the WOF then I get the DOS as 4.6  (5. x 4.6= 23.0).

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 21:59

Karren K. Brito

4.6% DOS is good. Just change your label on the chip and all is good, just ahead of the game.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:32

Artistry

 

when I think of a Neutral, I'm thinking of the grey scale, without hue or chroma. while this definately has hue, the chroma is so weak that it is close to light grey (8/). A Pale green still has more chroma? Maybe leaning more towards the yellow. That's a hard question. I'm still thinking.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 01:40

Karren K. Brito

 True neutrals are hard to come by, think of all the whites in a paint store.  Would  pale nearly neutral or pale chromatic neutral be better terms?

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 03:19

pjdoney (not verified)

There is no way I can dye until after the wedding <sigh>.  I wish it counted that I made 60 cups of non-dairy corn chowder today.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 03:27

Karren K. Brito

Probably better for eating than dye stock.

How about some yarn chips or color exercises, even with color aid paper.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 03:34

pjdoney (not verified)

I've read Chapter 3 (my optometrist was very interested in the color work) and done the 3 Munsell study pages.  i've been thinking about my process because it will be slightly different than what I am used to.  I would like to say that I will type it out tomorrow but I'm volunteering for one of three airport trips to pick up out-of-staters.

With the colored papers - do you want me to use the whole piece (we were given approximately 2 x 3 inch) or cut it in half?  I am missing spinning and playing with the dyeing stuff.  Soon, very soon....

 

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 04:08

Karren K. Brito

You chose about size of the paper. You can make the composition , photograph it and recover the paper for the next exercise.  You need to start getting the Munsell notation for something, eventually you will need to do your yarn.  This takes pratice and time.  Some of our brains or eyes have to ferment this way of working for a while before it kicks in.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 04:14

SharonR (not verified)

I have not been able to dye this week either. I am working on the reading and color exercises.  I also went back to the color chips from last week-I made a few mistakes. I have been weighing my yarn and attempting to use the niddy noddy. I am not sure if I am tying the knots right. How far apart should they be or how many to secure the yarn? Also, I have not been able to locate the sodium hexametaphosphate-I will have to order it. Is there anything else I can use?

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 05:49

Karren K. Brito

So is your water hard? how hard? just calcium?  Order the chemical, in the meantime try something else.  If the water isn't too hard just try it. 

Do you have a carbon based filter? Filtered water might work. If the water is really hard like here, you could buy a gallon or two of distilled water at the grocer.  When the proper chemical arrives we may have to dye an extra skein to compare.

Are you new to working with yarn?  Forget the niddy-noddy if you find it akward, two peg or clamps 18" apart will work, just wind the yarn around them.  Tie the two ends together, put 3 loose figure 8 ties around.  Just do something, the world won't end if you don't do it right, the skein will only tangle. Or you can work with silk cloth swatches, 5g each.  I've done a lot of those.

How about the color chips I asked you to make in week 1 from yarn/fabric you have? then to determine the value, chroma of them.

We need to be parcticing detemining the Munsell Notation of cloth/yarn.  Soon the notation will be how we make decisions on what to dye next.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 11:06

Mary Rios (not verified)

Sharon, initially i was trying to make small skeins on a skein winder set to less than 1m. that was slow and messy - Cathie suggested taking a book, and wrapping the book. I'm using 8/2 silk and the size book i use, take about 62 wraps. It goes fast and works.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 20:43

SharonR (not verified)

Yes, I am new to working with yarn (other than knitting). I am interested in making the silk samples, but do want to learn to dye the yarn. I do have a filter so I will try that with the water. I plan to catch up with everything this weekend so I am not further behind. It is taking me a little time to understand the Munsell notation-that is why I had to go back and reassign numbers for last weeks assignment.

Tue, 03/22/2011 - 17:21

pjdoney (not verified)

1)  Dry skein weigh - soak in water

2)  Make 1% stock solution

3)  Ready "chemical" water (pH 4.5, A. Set, Na Acetate, Glauber's NaCl)

4)  Do the math for mL for individual dye colors

5)  Prepare dye bath

6)  Process:

     Add damp skeins (10 min)

     Add measured dye stock  (10 min)

     Heat gradually to 95 C (203 F - I have altitude issues)

     Hold at 95 C approximately 1 hr, lift skeins occasionally

     Cool down room temp

     Remove skein, rinse, spin, hang to dry

 

 

 

Tue, 03/22/2011 - 17:56

Karren K. Brito

Looks good, clear.  You know there is no table salt, NaCl, in the bath only Glauber' salt, Na2SO4.  Sorry no subscripts here.

And just to be clear, you are making 100mL of olive  dye mix and using that  and keeping the rest for more dyeing while testing the process.  By using the same solution we are eliminating some of the errors of measurement here.  Isolation of variables-- we are testing process, adapting to mountian water and high altitude. 

Wedding is over, I take it and they left you behind for the honeymoon  ;).

Tue, 03/22/2011 - 19:26

pjdoney (not verified)

I know that there isn't table salt, only Glauber's.  I was racking my brain for subscripts so I wrote out the chemical formula for regular salt for short hand.  I was primarily writing for a general process as opposed to the trial dyeing runs. 

And yes, 100 mL of olive! 

They did indeed leave me behind for their honeymoon but now I get to have the dye studio.  I think that is honeymoon enough for me.  : )

Fri, 03/25/2011 - 03:05

pjdoney (not verified)

Rocky Mountain Dyeing Process

1)  Dry skein weigh - soak in water

2)  Make 1% stock solution of olive green (58 mL gold, 29 mL turquoise, 13 mL magenta)

3)  Ready "chemical" water (pH 4.5,  1/4 tsp/ 2.5L A. Set, 1/4 tsp Na Acetate/ 5L, 2 gr/ L Glauber)

4)  Process:

     Add damp skeins (10 min)

     Add 2.25 mL Olive dye  (10 min)

     Heat gradually to 95 C (203 F - I have altitude issues)

     Hold at 95 C approximately 1 hr, lift skeins occasionally

     Cool down room temp

     Remove skein, rinse, spin, hang to dry

Fri, 03/25/2011 - 12:46

Karren K. Brito

Good and clear!

You do calculate the amount of the olive dye stock based on the weight of each skein, right? not 2.25mL for all.

I would like to reserve the term"chemical water" for a different concoction I use when doing direct application, can we call this one prepared dyebath or just dyebath.  It actually has very few chemicals in it.

Fri, 03/25/2011 - 14:46

pjdoney (not verified)

Yes, the 2.25 mL of dye stock is for a 5 gram wool skein dyed at 0.45% DOS.

I will avoid using the term "chemical water".  Does dye bath to you mean the water, acetic acid, sodium acetate, and Glauber or the preceeding four items AND dye stock?  I'm probably still fuzzy headed from the wedding - I think I've been reading interpetations for both.

Definitely feeling overwhelmed with the system not working properly.  Today I have to do a lot of other non-dyeing tasks so I hope to get my 5 L of dye bath made again and do (hopefully) one round of dyeing.

Fri, 03/25/2011 - 16:50

Karren K. Brito

Hey folks, after our sessions yesterday  I was concerned that I had not been clear.  The  one point I want to make clear is that we need to weigh each and every skein and do our calculations based on the weight of that skein.

Few skeins will be exactly 5.0g, if you weigh them they will be 4.8, 5.1, 5.0, 5.1g,  the difference is significant.  We are working at the limit of our abilities to measure here, using tiny skeins just to save materials.  But these differences will magnify  when you try to scale the color, that is dye a skein of 500g the same color--- the difference between 480g and 510g everyone sees as important, in our skeins that is the difference between 4.8g and 5.1g.

You weigh the goods to be dyed every time.  No assumptions.  Assumptions get you in trouble.

I had a couture designer come and work with me for a week in the dye studio.  He did a lot of amazing dyeing and surface design but was not happy with his control,  The big revelation to him was that you weigh the goods each time.  He had been doing it by  yds.; if one yard is 137g,and he wanted to  dye 5 yards he just mltiplied 5 x 137g.  He solved most of his control issues by weighing each piece. This is not an difficult task if you are pre-short-term memory loss. Other days you have wet goods and no weight, :(.

 

Fri, 03/25/2011 - 20:11

pjdoney (not verified)

My pH looked correct before starting (4.5 or 4.6) and at the end of the dye session is now 5.0.  My guess is this won't exhaust very well either.

Fri, 03/25/2011 - 22:09

pjdoney (not verified)

My results look to be about the same old, same old color.  I think a little more dye did exhaust this time but there's still a lot of red in the water.  My guess is that in trying to get the high temp that water surrounding the jar would splash into the jar with skein and dye.  Knowing that my water has a pH of 5.3, I am assuming that is the culprit for the raising of my pH level to 5.0 from 4.5/ 4.6.

I could try putting aluminum foil over the top of the dye jar once the water bath gets more active.  I would prefer waiting to do that until I put the lid on the pot because of fussing but that might not be an option. 

I can send you a picture but honestly, you've already seen very similar results.  Do you want me to post on the spreadsheet?

Fri, 03/25/2011 - 23:02

pjdoney (not verified)

Share the misery....before and after pH pictures:ph before 3/ 25/ 11

 

after pH 3/ 25/ 11

Made my new dye bath using 5 L water, 1/2 tsp A. Set, 1/4 tsp Sodium acetate, and 10 gr Glauber salt.  pH was lowered to approx. 4.5 using acetic acid.  Soaked 5 gr skein in water, then soaked in dye bath (10 min), removed skein, put 2.25 mL Olive Green in jar and replaced skein and let it sit (10 min).  In just over an hour temp was raised from 19 C to 94 C with a dwell time of 1 hour (dunking every few minutes).  Cool down of several hours, rinse, etc.

third attempt at olive green

Jeff and I are wondering about making an e-collar out of aluminum foil so I can dunk but hopefully keep out lively water splashes.  That would also allow for me to monitor its temp more easily.

Fri, 03/25/2011 - 23:59

Karren K. Brito

 

It is normal for the pH to rise during processing, from 4.5 to 5.0 is about right.  did you by any chance measure the pH any other time?

Sometimes the addtion of the wool or dye changes the pH and that is a problem if the pH has already risen to 5.0 before you start heating, that would cause less exhaust.

Tell me about your water again, Peggy.  Mountian water but municipal or well.  How hard?

Since your additives are in the range of the others, of course you are working with wool, I suspect the water.

Throw out the dyebath you made and make new, the old one didn't work.  Do you have any sodium hexametaphosphate on hand? or can you get a gallon of distilled water (not spring water) at the grocery?

So the suggestions I have are:

  • make a new dyebath with different water
  • measure the pH after each addtion to the    dyebath

I suspect your colors are darker than the silk ones because your wool is darker than the silk to start with.

Hang in there!

Sat, 03/26/2011 - 00:37

pjdoney (not verified)

I did take the pH before and after the other two previous cooking times.  They were about 4.6 at the beginning and end of processing.

So, you want me to make a third new dyebath using distilled water.  I used fresh dyebath this morning after throwing out the orignal batch.  I don't have the sodium hexametaphosphate but can order some in.  I will test the pH of the dye bath after adding Glaubers (test), sodium acetate (test), and A. Set (test).  I should also test the pH of the dyebath before I put the wool skein in.

Did I miss anything?

Sat, 03/26/2011 - 02:25

pjdoney (not verified)

5L distilled water 5.0 pH

1/4 tsp/ 2.5L A. Set  4.9 or 4.8 pH

1/4 tsp sodium acetate/ 5L  5.3? pH

2 gr/ L Glauber salt  5.6 or 5.7? pH

12 mL 5% acetic acid  4.5 pH

I measured the pH of these in the order written.  Some of the pH colors were very hard to tell so I have indicated my uncertainty (gotta find my digital pH meter!).

Here is a link to our utility company's report on our water:

http://www.csu.org/residential/services/water/wqr/item6292.pdf

Approximately 75% of our water comes from mountain streams.  "The majority of this raw water is transferred to our city through pipelines that help to protect it from contamination, such as herbicides, pesticides, heavy metals, and other chemicals."

In addition to this water, we also use local surface and ground water sources (slopes of Pikes Peak, creeks, watershed, wells on three different aquifers) and treated surface water that is routed through a river.

Here is a link to the Detected Contaminant Table:

http://www.csu.org/residential/services/water/wqr/item6298.pdf

Copper is listed at 1.3 ppm and lead is 0 ppb.

As far as I know, we have soft water.

Now, your previous comment that:

"Sometimes the addtion of the wool or dye changes the pH and that is a problem if the pH has already risen to 5.0 before you start heating, that would cause less exhaust."   - I should put my wool in the 300 mL dye bath and check the pH right away and let it sit for 10 minutes.  Take the skein out, add 2.25 mL of Olive dyestock, put skein back in, and measure the pH again, and let skein sit for 10 minutes.  If it is up to pH 5, should I add small amounts of acetic acid to the 300mL dyebath/ plus dye?

 

Thanks, Karren, for your help.  I haven't pulled any of my hair out...yet...