On her blog, Laura writes about  "Who Needs Teachers... when we have each other." . As usual, she has many valid thoughts, most of which I am in agreement with.

Myself, I am (among other things) the webmother of my local guild. After nearly every meeting, I have to decide what to share, and what not. For these situations, there are two considerations: a) our members actually pay to be menbers, so why should the rest of the world get everything "for free"? and b) if we really mean anything with the mission statement about "getting more people interested in weaving" - how can we do so, if we only write about how good it was to have coffee?
I try to have at least something "weaverly" on every page I add - sometimes it is a small draft, sometimes it is a tip, sometimes it is book recommendations. I do think that the people attending the meeting(s) got more out of it than what I write on the page(s).

Just as Laura does, I also share a lot (in my own opinion, of course ;-) on my personal website and blog.

Quite often, I get e-mail questions - most often nice. But there are an increasing number of questions with a tone of "you owe mw an answer" (or so I think, anyway). I also get an increasing number of hits, both to my site and the guild site, from searches about "free ..." (patterns, instructions...). When (if) I answer that kind of question with "the cheapest way to find patterns/instructions is from a library - all libraries (in Sweden, anyway) are free to use" it happens that I get a dissatisfied answer, along the lines of "it is too hard work to read a whole book".

Sometimes I get questions of how to read the draft on (page name) - when the whole draft is there (threading, tie-up, treadling and structure). Every time that happens, I wonder: what is the question really about?

As I also am responsible for the Swe nat'l guild's links page I "have" to surf sometimes, searching for sites to add. I (think I) see more and more guild pages who "give away" nothing, showing very small pictures of little old ladies drinking coffee and looking at minuscule (in the picture) weave samples.

Could we have a general discussion about sharing, the what and the how of it?

There has to be a (good) balance between sharing and getting paid; about (for the lack of a better word) "respect" and "I deserve it free". Question is: where is that balance?

Comments

Kade1301

on my mood... I think information should circulate freely - however, I'm not willing to summarize a chapter from a book that's available online. On the other side I'm happy enough if somebody answers a question of mine with a link or a book title - or even just the search word which allows Google to find what I'm looking for (not always so easy in a foreign language).

I'm no longer willing to give free "lessons" in spinning or farming (every now and then I get a phone call from somebody who would like to come to my place and "just look at how I work" - generally because they want to set up a fibre farm of their own. When I offer they can help me clean rabbit hutches, they quickly lose interest...) - people can always book a proper lesson.

Our "local" fibre group is inofficial and non-paying and everybody is welcome at the meetings - the only expectation is bringing something for lunch. There information circulates more intensively. But in reality (as opposed to online) in France there's rather too little interest in, curiosity about and request for information about spinning and weaving than too much. When I spin at the artisans' market in Rennes I'm happy about everybody who seems really interested in how yarn is created and I demonstrate the principle in slow motion several times a day. (I'm a bit less happy about the 10th person of the day who asks: "And where did Sleeping Beauty prick her finger" ;) ).

What I find really puzzling is the French paranoia about photographs - nearly in every exhibition it's forbidden to take pictures. I've never understood why, and I always grant permission when people want to take pictures of my items - I figure, anybody who can copy after a photograph deserves to have the item.

tommye scanlin

Kerstin,

You have brought up valid points to think about and ones that those of us who teach for some part of our income struggle with.  I read Laura's comments at her blog after seeing her note about it at Facebook and was very intrigued with her thoughtful post. And that leads me to the first point I want to make--the interconnectness of individuals all over the world through the seeming ease of use of the Internet, the World Wide Web.  Sort of ironic that the words "net" and "web" are part of the almost overwhelming connections we now have.  And that as fiber folks we're seeing both the good side and the bad side of the interwoven web that's being created.

In conjunction with the explosion of information on the Web, the DIY movement has been going strong for some time now.  Doing it yourself with a few basic hints from magazines, blog posts, YouTube, etc. is something that lots of people engage in, with enjoyment.  Information is so readily shared and easily gotten that it begins to seem like one's "right" to be able to find out how to do most anything at a few key strokes.  However, the validity and/or accuracy of the information is sometimes shaky.  

I don't have answers for others or for myself about these issues.  But I think they're important ones to be considering, whether one is trying to share something in a generous way with others or seeking information about something.

And, Kerstin, I have been burned through my attempts to share... not a pleasant experience and one that took me by total surprise.  The experience hasn't caused me to not want to share, when I feel I reasonably can, but has made me more cautious about immediately replying to questions that might arise here.  And that's too bad, I guess.

Tommye Scanlin

 

 

sally orgren

I am still pondering this one. Wow. Articulated so well.

Sara von Tresckow

I too, have no patent answer here. Like Laura, I've received venomous emails from persons who thought I should provide materials carefully prepared and sold to others or included in loom packages for free.

Tone and type of question do play a role. If a question is of a generic nature, it isn't usually too much to craft a response that will be helpful to more than one person. When a personalized response will include something like a video disk or CD that took hours to produce, expensive equipment and has been sold to others either directly or as part of a workshop or major purchase - that is not free whether the person likes that response or not.

In our business, we avoid "specials" that favor some customers over others - and that follows through on information and teaching. Phone inquiries and visits to the shop are handled in similar fashion - over time, I've learned when someone is there to get a free lesson and start answering questions with something like "that is contained in the lessons I give". Most take the hint and either back off or set up an appointment for a lesson. Must not be such a terrible approach - lately there has been a steady stream of students and the week of the EAA is getting lively.

The Internet is there and provides an eerie anonymity - I think that requests from absolute strangers should be treated tepidly while answering, for instance, someone who posts frequently on the list or networking site merits a deeper response as that person is sharing as well.

Personally, I'm quite open to anyone who gives back in some way - and quite cautious and withholding with anyone who comes on with "gimme". Also, time available plays a role. When someone runs a business, keeps up a house and garden, there are times when a lengthy free response to a publicly asked question just isn't possible - it would be nice if the persons receiving valuable information could understand that claiming that time deserves at least a hearty thank you. 

Weavingholiday

This is a terrific conversation, and some clearly well-considered thoughts!

I don't have a lot to add, except to say that I learned to spin when we lived in a pretty isolated place, and there was no question of my being able to afford to go anywhere where I could take lessons. Books and a very primitive internet were my only access to the generous people who contributed their insights and wisdom to my (painful and awkward) learning.

This exprience has, needless to say, made me value the teachers I have had since then more, not less :)

Because of the generosity of people who have helped me over the years, I do make a point of doing things pro bono for community groups from time to time, paying it forward as it were.

The other side of that coin, though, is that there is an almost infinite market for "free" stuff. To prevent burn out, I have tried to "define" what I will do, and for whom as a matter of policy. Like Sara, I would rather not "play favourites," so being able to have "policies" helps to not only keep things fair, but it makes it easier to say "sorry, no," when it is a matter of "policy," and not personal.

I guess there will always be some people who are not too polite, or who do not communicate well in emails, hope those experiences don't overwhelm the good that can and does happen, too.

laurafry

The news hit the internet that Anne Field has passed away, May 29, 2013.

This is very sad news as Anne was a very active teacher, author and all round gentle person.

 

Laura

Kade1301

Too true - and I admit I'm getting slightly cranky when I elaborate a longish answer to a complex question per e-mail and don't even get a thank you. I'm considering starting a blacklist...

On another subject, that of internet forums: I remember a person in another forum - not textile-related - who more or less permanently critized other members' doings and posts, the attitude coming across as "I'm a professional, and you are all idiots who don't know what you are doing and not really worth my time anyway." I don't remember him giving a single piece of useful advice or information - just lots of negativity. I for one wasn't sorry to see him leave the forum... If one is neither looking for information, nor willing to pass it on - what does one do in a forum?

In textile forums, fortunately, I mostly see a development: newcomers ask questions and over time they become old-timers who answer them. Which is as it should be, in my opinion...

 

Bonnie Inouye (not verified)

Good topic. As an active member of Complex Weavers, I have contributed drafts when asked. One of their first compilations was a book in honor of an anniverary. One of the drafts I decided to contribute is an 8-shaft overshot draft with an advancing sequence as part of the threading, to give a relatively large-scale design without super-long floats. But it is overshot. One woman found my email address and wrote to complain that I had sent a draft to a published book and it has weft floats! I should have warned her about those weft floats! What was I thinking? Really!

I am missing Anne Field, too. I visited her on my first trip to NZ. She was so nice to us. We roomed together during a CNCH conference when her checked bag with her clothes and personal stuff did not appear in San Francisco. She had gone through US customs with two bags in Los Angeles but somehow one had gone astray on that last leg of the trip. She was just beginning a very long tour of N. America. She called the airline every evening from our hotel room and then washed out her quick-dry blouse in the bathroom sink. She was a good sport. It took 3 months for the airline to get that bag delivered to her! I think about this every time I pack for a teaching trip. Anne kept saying how much worse if would have been if the other suitcase had gone missing- that one had all of her teaching samples.

There are many places where we can help other weavers for free, and I do spend a lot of time on this now (for the past 2 years or so). But I still need to spend time preparing for paid teaching jobs! Preparation is not so quick in my case. I am teaching the topics that interest me most, in the way that makes sense to me, but it is much more time-consuming than it should be. I keep going over pages to improve them. ANWG is coming soon and I am teaching a 3-day on-loom workshop and 4 different seminars. I hope to see some of you there.

Bonnie

sally orgren

collaboration, credit, cash?

I think in the best sense, we share to solve problems and collaborate. I think the problems arise when individuals want to take all the credit, or seek to take other's contributions and "monetize" them. This is certainly an emerging area in many different sectors.

----------------

I heard an intriguing CBC IDEAS podcast recently, I think it was titled "Opening the Book — Our digitally connected world is forcing us to re-imagine what books could be."

One of the story lines was about university research. Traditionally, when research was conducted, the author may work on the project for a number of years, then produce a paper or body of work, and reap the benefits.

But it was pointed out that today, many young academics are publishing online, as they go, and encouraging input during the process. One of the interviewees mentioned they may never actually publish a printed document, as the research and results will remain virtual and in flux. To an already tenured professor, this idea was shocking. But several people mentioned the open collaboration/ongoing peer review process meant they obtained more qualified results.

One question that quickly came up was due credit. If you do not produce the work totally independently (allow crowd-sourcing), then who gets the rewards (financial or otherwise) if there are any?

I remember when we paid a well-known weaver to give us a workshop. At one of the breaks, she asked everyone to gather around and share their favorite tip or trick about the topic at hand. She took notes like the rest of us. I did not realize until later she was known for producing books on tips and tricks. Is this any different than weavers today who have blogs, post their projects, accept & implement viewer feedback, then produce improved results and reap the benefits? 

I heard Jane McGonigal speak this fall (Reality is Broken) and she presented some case studies of how gamers (or the idea of crowd sourcing brain power) solved specific problems and led to successful, real world solutions in much faster time than traditional modes. In one case study, all the participants got credit (the New York Public Library project). In another study, innovative new avenues of research to a long standing medical problem were introduced within 48 hours, after more than 2 years had exhausted the research dollars with no alternatives in sight. However, the question remains, if the entity who eventually cracks the medical problem (based on the crowd-sourced suggestions) ends up making millions on a patent, do the participants get a piece of that cash?

-------------

So what's my motivation? I don't have a website or blog, products to sell, or classes to teach. I am just a weaver who likes to hang out with other weavers. As I have many years of weaving left, I worry that I won't have contemporaries around if the knowledge isn't shared.

I certainly appreciate those who are experienced and/or make their living at weaving taking the time to step in and participate in forums like these. They have more skin in the game than someone like me, and I realize they also have more risk when participating. I would say in most cases, the quality and tone of their participation (not necessarily frequency) makes me highly likely to recommend them to guildmates and seek them out at conferences or for workshops. 

Sally

Weavingholiday

We sure are right in the thick of a brave new world! Super, and really interesting conversation that has far-reaching implications.

On who gets the credit, it seems like the current model for copyright is just not up to living in our digital world. There are people who argue that instead of doing what it was supposed to do: creating a supportive environment for creativity and new thinking, copyright is having a chilling effect, making everyone work in isolation, afraid to even accidentally infringe on copyright, keeping people away from collaboration. In academia, the direct financial gains to individual authors are usually pretty small, break throughs, great papers, etc. may help you to access funding, find a better  position, etc. but it is the publishers who sell the journals, the authors do not usually get much compensation. So you end up with a fair number of people who have a stake in guarding copyright, and maybe fearing too much collaboration, which is too bad.

It seems like collaboration should not only be credited, it should be transparent up front? I bet lots of people will still contribute, just looking at this website and all the generosity here seems to support that? Whether doing it digitally or in person, if you intend to "share" something someone has told you, they should know that up front?

Cranky people are a trial in a lot of groups. I know I have run into them in in-person situations as well as online. But online is maybe a bit of a special case, because some people need the feed back of in-person body language to let them know when they are crossing the line, some people just do not write very well, or understand email/digital protocols, and some people maybe like the anonymity and feel a bit (unfortunately) empowered? But when you have a strong, positive group, those sorts often fall away. I think getting a direct email from the poorly socialized can feel more direct, more hurtful, than stuff on a board, though?

As for people who don't know you should say "thank you," they are out there. I know someone who will send a follow-up email saying: I sent you an email on such-and-such a date, and as I have not heard back from you, am writing to make sure it arrived. This is in a business context, and apprently it has a cut down on the silent sorts. Does seem like it would take time, though.

Sara von Tresckow

1. Copyright law states that "common knowledge" cannot be copyrighted, but the presentation of existing knowledge can. This means that "tips" out there that are known by a large body of persons are common knowledge, not copyrightable, but that a presentation of that "tip" illustrated with one's own charts and photos is. This would cover much of what happens when people get together and share information that ultimately leads to one of them publishing their own version.

We may have told Ms. X about something - we do not know if others did. Therefore, it is difficult with "crowd sourcing" to pin down who put the "original idea" out there. Certainly, the person who concretizes the idea in a nicely formatted blog post, Word document or PDF using their computer and software would be the one entitled to the copyright - for that specific document.

2. We have participated in an academic project for the last few years - first by selling a professor in Green Bay some handwoven linenyardage, then by presenting a weekend workshop (paid according to our normal rates) on growing and processing flax and having many nice converstaions - the study of how the linothorax armor used by Alexander the Great might have been constructed. The results were published recently - "Reconstructing Ancient Linen Body Armor" by Gregory S. Aldrete, Scott Bartell and Alicia Aldrete - Johns Hopkins Press, 2013. We are listed in the Forward as among the persons contributing to understanding the research and received an autographed complimentary copy of the book.

I consider this correct and what I expected based on my experiences in life - not just internet weaving. We were compensated for any goods and services related to our involvement, listed as sources and given a copy of the results. The book is the work of the authors and their presentation of their findings is now their own and I would never try to reap any additional compensation for our participation.

As a nice perk, last week we received an inquiry from a college in Minnesota about conducting a workshop on flax processing - we were recommended by the linothorax team.

sally orgren

My ears pricked up! I'd certainly like to suggest that topic to the Weaving History conference coordinators for a future conference presentation! 

kerstinfroberg

can be a tricky business. Among other things 'cos weaving has been around for such a long time... how high are the odds of me (or you, or the person I first heard "it" from) being the absolute originator of this specific structure/tip/idea? Also after 5, 10, 35 years of (me) weaving, how can I remember who first brought "it" up?

Take, for instance, the warping valet from Öxabäck (picture here). I know the person who first started producing these for sale in Sweden (but I don't know when). He later "gave" the idea to the Öxabäck people (thus stopped producing them himself). Long before I had seen/heard of this specific tool (in the Folke/Öxabäck configuration) I had discussed beaming with lots of ppl, and had had several tips along the same lines. While I admit that I "built" (actually drilled 2 holes) my own starting from their idea, I still have no idea of who was "first". And, considering the number of weavers out there -

Sally wrote, a propos a teacher collecting hints, "Is this any different than weavers today who have blogs, post their projects, accept & implement viewer feedback, then produce improved results and reap the benefits?" My English is not good enough to determine if the person getting better results is the blogger or the reader, but: isn't that the idea with *all* teaching? Don't we all (both students and teachers) get "better" in some way by participating in classes? I could, of course, credit my first weaving teacher - but some 35 years later I have gained so much from both others and by my own weaving that I can't separate the "teachings" anymore...

Lots to think about...

debmcclintock

I have noticed the expectation of younger weavers expecting everything to be on youtube or electronically accessible.......for free.

I recently attended a conference where the speaker played two videos and did a limited amount of speaking.  She is a teacher and indicated that this method is how she teaches now to hold students attention.  They cannot sit thru powerpoints.  So I can see how these expectations are being supported and grown.

When I do lecture I use powerpoint and do put videos in with still photos to demonstrate techniques.  The subject I lecture on has been gleaned from trips overseas and countless hours sitting with weavers filming and interviewing them.  I try to pay the weavers and buy from them directly at all times possible.  Hence a significant amount of money has been spent on collecting that information in addition to lessons, travel and translators.  

I suppose one must accept this new transistion within the education system but we don't all have access to the video systems to create quality presentation.  Quite simply it comes down to, travel and gain the first hand information in order to teach it and make folks aware of the different weaving options or cut down your travel and spend money on presentations for free.  

I don't have a answer for my musing. But I do choose to continue to travel and document.  I do write up my discovers on my tripjournal blog and also write for Complex Weavers and lecture to guilds.  I find anything else takes time away from my weaving and personal life. One has to choose.

laurafry

It is definitely a balancing act.  Like others I have spent significant $'s learning what I know, either actual cash outlay or in materials used to (gasp!) sample, not to mention my time - for no other purpose than to increase my knowledge.  The attitude that I then owe new (usually younger, now) weavers the benefit of my knowledge does rankle.  OTOH, we do need new blood in order to keep the craft alive.

I just spent a great deal of money on a trip to the UK where one of the benefits (if you will) was meeting some new to the craft as well as more established weavers in person.  (You know who you are!)  ;D

One of those weavers was a young person taking a degree in textiles.  It was great to meet someone young (20's?) who is as passionate about textiles as I was in my 20's and still am.  Someone willing to sample, explore and learn as much as possible about the creation of textiles.  

It gave me hope that there will be enough young people coming along to keep the craft alive.  

Frankly weaving is easy.  It is weaving *well* that is hard.  I often see new weavers vowing to stick to something 'easy' like plain weave.  While plain weave may be 'simple', weaving it well is not easy. :-/  But new weavers often confuse simple with easy and then get frustrated with their results.

So I answer questions on chat groups and blog - for free.  But when I travel somewhere I do expect to get paid - an honorarium for actual teaching and expenses of travel, which are not insignificant since I live very far away from most of the groups hiring me to teach.  Whether those groups will continue to want to pay with the rising costs of travel only time will tell....

As for power point presentations not being sufficient for 'young' people?  Well, that is the current state of my technology.  I've done just enough video work to know how difficult that is to do well, and it also has its limitations.  You only get one point of view (unless you get really sophisticated), so when I teach process I tell students that they can record the presentation in any way they wish.  I realize - now - that I ought to be telling them that such recordings are for their own use, not to be uploaded to You Tube or whereever....

When I started weaving in 1975 at the tender age of 25 there was lots of moaning about the 'greying' of the guilds.  Seems like the more things change, the more they stay the same?  ;)

cheers,

Laura

who is now part of the 'grey' her own self - and what a journey it has been!  :DDDD

Kade1301

- I have always hated them. Many speakers get so carried away with the presentation's look that they forget content. I'd rather they made notes on a blackboard (or white board), or simply showed pictures in whatever format, if pictures are important. Power Point handouts become next to useless in no time at all, as well - I'd much prefer the actual manuscript of the speech, if one exists.

On the other hand, when I go to a conference, it's to experience the speakers live - I wouldn't want to see videos, either.

(But unfortunately it occurs to me that whereas I'm a new weaver, I'm not one of the young ones. :( )

 

 

laurafry

I was reluctant to go the Power Point route, but overhead projectors are antique as are slides.  I have converted one of my presentations to Power Point because the information in it is factual rather than process based.  For process I'd rather use video clips if I can't demonstrate - which could be a problem in a large group setting.

Unfortunately nothing is 'ideal'.  :(

With more internet based learning, it appears the two choices are Power Point or video clips as a compliment to audio or text...and if we hope to reach younger weavers, I've been told that the internet is the way to go...one reason I've done some video clips and loaded them to You Tube.

With the high cost of travel, at least internet based learning is an opportunity to present one's thoughts without incurring big debts - either on the group or the teacher's part?

cheers,

Laura

Sara von Tresckow

Just FYI - Powerpoint can be used in such a way that no one suspects it underlies your presentation.

Among the myriad slide formats with excessive bullet points lies - guess what - a BLANK slide. This is a blank area where any graphic you choose can be sized and placed. It can be a photo, slide, scanned slide, scanned page from a publication - any graphic. You can then place a simple text box on that page and annotate briefly any way you like. When presented to an audience, it appears to be a nicely made slide show - you can use Powerpoint design capability to craft a nice title and trailer - and it looks lovely. Additionally, the Powerpoint file can be saved off as a PDF. I routinely use such PDF files on my iPad - either to show someone up close and personal or it can be run through my digital projector and put on the wall.

When the overhead projector disappeared, I did some thinking - it is not a copyright violation to use the overhead projector to share your books and magazines with students - as long as you do not publish this material and distribute or sell it. If you scan that page and save the graphic as a Powerpoint slide, you have the same situation - material that you own is being shared on a screen with students and you are not violating any legal side of the material. This actually has advantages over using the overhead projector. Since you've had a chance to prepare and sequence the material, the awkward pauses as new material is loaded on the overhead disappear and your presentation runs much more smoothly. Also, you can break the presentation for discussion and take it up again quite easily.

I find it a very useful tool to prepare nice material without spending a fortune on technical items.

 

sarahnopp (not verified)

There are a lot of alternates to PowerPoint really, just search that phrase "PowerPoint alternatives". I think Prezi is the prettiest one I have seen, but there are many out there. Even Google drive has a version you can use, and then save in different presentation formats. 

But I use the blank slides like Sarah mentions above. I use very minimal text, black background, large images, no fancy transitions. The photos remind of what I need to be talking about, there are no long bullet lists for me to be tempted to read (I hate that), and the low amount of text means that note taking is focused on what I am saying. There is a good book called Beyond Bullet Points, if you want some ideas.