I am a newer weaver - warping f/b,  Working with 8/2 cotton, black, 2 threads to a dent.  Did all I was supposed to do with warp on the board - tied cross in 4 places, tied very tight choke- slayed the reed, threaded headles - however, I have a tangled mess from the choke tie to the reed - cannot figure out how it happened, thought it would straighten out, but of course it didn't.  Took forever to sley and thread, due to the dark thread.  Any hope or should I just chuck it.

Thanks

Irene 

Comments

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:21

JacRoyce

Hi

Unless you actually tied a knot in it, it's only messy, not truly tangled. Untie the choke tie, comb the mess a bit with your fingers, and proceed with tying on to the back beam and winding it on. Just keep going. Eventually, you'll be untying choke ties earlier than you might otherwise, but the whole mess will comb out when you get to the end.

It's an adventure!

Jac

 

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:26

Sara von Tresckow

Did you work from the cross using lease sticks? If you didn't, you do not have your threads sleyed in the order they were chained. The cross is very important in weaving - opened onto a pair of lease sticks, it shows the order in which the warp threads were wound. If this order is not maintained throughout the weaving process, tangles will occur.

Yes, there are books that tell you to sley the reed from the cross held on your fingers or some other way without the lease sticks - tear out those pages. Whichever direction you thread your loom, it must be in the order of the thread cross.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:33

khakijean

Oh, come on, many of us sley the reed from the cross held on our fingers, do not use lease sticks, and do not have problems.
Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:38

igaff (not verified)

Hi,

Yes used the lease sticks and worked from the cross.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:39

igaff (not verified)

Thank you, that is what I have started doing!  It most certainly is an adventure, but I will continue on!

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 17:15

Sara von Tresckow

Whoever refuses to learn to warp from the cross held on lease sticks will have real difficulty later going to fabric more than 12" wide or what one refers to as "real cloth". Sure, for scarves with 90 threads anything goes - try 1000 fine linen threads, 4 to a dent in reed at 48epi - there will be problems using just your fingers.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 17:55

Queezle

Confession -- I've never used lease sticks, and always held my warp in small-ish bundles, cross held carefully in my left hand.  I've never really seen a diagram for using the lease sticks that I understood.  But it sounds like something I should learn!  In part, I gave up weaving when my kids were small because I couldn't properly warp.  Lease sticks might have ben a help.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 18:07

Dena (not verified)

If you do have a tight choke tie about 18" from your cross (or about 1yd from the end of your warp), you should be able to gently pull each thread as you thread them through the heddles (pull hard enough so they stop moving but not so hard that they come out of your choke tie) and have the "tangle" work itself out.  If you remove that tight choke tie, the mess will get much worse.  The mess always freaks out my beginners and I have to reassure them that it will work out fine and then it does.  Good luck!
Sat, 04/27/2013 - 20:35

ReedGuy

I use lease sticks to. I could never fiddle with 2000 ends in my hands because they could slip easily from my hands as I don't have the dexterity that some have. I'm not kidding, I couldn't take it. When I do my heavy wool blankets, I put my bouts evenly on the tie rod, then run the sticks through both sides of the cross and secure the sticks to the back beam. Then I spread the warp with the raddle. I'm not saying this is the only way to do things. It's my way is all. My blankets are often doubled sett as I weave two layers. My loom is 60 inches of weaving, 62-1/8" full inside width.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 20:53

igaff (not verified)

thanks Dena,  

Been hoping to take one of your classes - I live down the block from 6 loose ladies in Proctorsville - was hoping for your rag rug class in June, but not ready yet.  Will get there.  I also know Phyllis Bont.  

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 21:34

Dena (not verified)

Rag Rugs is this weekend and it's been a blast.  Six lovely weavers, six big rugs, many placemats and tons of fabric all over the place.  End of June I will be doing "Beginning Weaving", which is also, "not quite beginning, but I could use some help...Weaving".  I added a second weekend since the first filled up.  If you're feeling like a drive tomorrow, come on down and peek in sometime before 2pm.  I look forward to meeting you, whenever it happens!
Mon, 04/29/2013 - 16:27

JacRoyce

I will never understand why some people find it so rewarding to attack and belittle those who work differently than they do. In particular, the relish with which "Deny and Embarrass" is the go-to response. Weaving is not an organized religion—there are no heretics. [And besides, "heresy" simply means "choice."]

FACT: There is more than one way to successfuly warp your loom—no matter how many ends you are using or how fine your warp thread is. Learn (or at least try) more than one way. You may find (as VERY MANY weavers do) that you personally find a way that suits you best and that you prefer to use at least most of the time. Plus, you will be able to choose the process that works best for your body, your loom, and your project.

And if you fall in love with your preferred method and decide to use it all the time, try to remember that our species has been weaving for milennia: there's never been only one way and there never will be.

Most weavers are friendly, helpful, and won't treat you like an idiot. Ignore the divas.

 

Mon, 04/29/2013 - 17:38

ReedGuy

Jac, yes there is more than one method to set up a loom very successfully. And to be quite honest, I doubt there are any more questions posed when someone runs into a snag while warping traditionally or otherwise. However this seems to be a jumping point for some to go on a rant about what's right or wrong with their methods. But also realize that in fact something could be wrong with a single step in the process and so don't interpret this as someone feeling superior.

Mon, 04/29/2013 - 18:10

JacRoyce

So, you don't think the introductory sequence, "Anybody who refuses to learn..." indicates a sense of superiority? Perhaps you haven't read enough of the shaming posts to get a real idea of the way a few people on this site treat others. It wasn't me who went on a rant. Or you. I defend against rants. I'm a stand-up-for-the-little-guy type. 

Jac

Mon, 04/29/2013 - 18:31

Dena (not verified)

My preference is always that if there is something that is found distasteful in a public forum, that the feedback be given privately.  Sometimes the feedback can be more shaming than the initial post.  It is hard to have an accurate understanding of tone in a public forum and posts can be easily misunderstood.  If feedback is given privately, preferably in a gentle and considerate manner, it is more likely that whomever you are struggling with can hear you with more openness than defensiveness.
Mon, 04/29/2013 - 19:44

Gemma (not verified)

It's not the first time I've cringed over a "Handier-Than-Thou" comment. Experienced weavers may be able to rise above intimidation when it's doled out. But I feel sorry for beginners being confronted in that manner.
Mon, 04/29/2013 - 19:49

JacRoyce

Thanks for your feedback, Dena. I appreciate the value applying of gentle, considerate, and private conversations to many problems. I have never been good, however, at sitting idly by while the mean kids beat up the new kids. 40 years of teaching, I'm not convinced that the best way to handle a bully is by enabling her/him publicly until after-the-beating and sending the new kid home with a black eye. Stop the beating first. Then, if the bully wants to try new coping and conversation skills, help. In the meantime, you've denied the bully an apparently-supportive public atmosphere in which to practice being mean.

Since we're all here to help each other, let's be nice and helpful.  

Mon, 04/29/2013 - 20:00

Dawn McCarthy

If you choke tied the warp and the threads look good at the lease, tension the threads 1 inch at a time from behind the reed and through the heddles and tie onto the warp apron bar. Work your way across the warp. The sooner you can get the threads tensioned and under control the easier it will be.  Tie onto the warp apron bar in smallish groups (1 inch) and tension the warp chain while beaming.  A lot of the tangles should dimininish as soon as you apply tension and start to beam.  Once the warp is attached to the apron bar you can pull from in front the reed and you have resistance to get those tangles out. You may want to consider trying Back to Front using a raddle and see which you find gives better results (I almost always use back to front and a raddle can be made from nails and a cheap piece of wood for a couple $)

Good luck!

Dawn

bloominloom.com

bloominloom.wordpress.com

Mon, 04/29/2013 - 21:31

ReedGuy

Jac, I'm not here to make enemies, take sides or baby sit. I've got lots of other things to discuss and share. So what are you currently working on? :)

Mon, 04/29/2013 - 22:45

Queezle

I'll give the lease sticks a go in my next warp - but how in heck does one time them on to the loom?  I think I've been afraid that they would mess up my cross, not preserve it.  And is it only for back-to-front?  I'm open to trying new things.

Mon, 04/29/2013 - 22:59

igaff (not verified)

Thanks all really appreciate the help, I have learned to edit out atitudes.  Anyway after pulling, and shaking and saying not nice words in front of my little Beagle - I decided to cut the warp off.  I managed to try and see if I had any other problems and yes there were.  Anyway, I have yarn left and I am going to try this draft again.  I did something wrong and I am going to find out what.  I have learned.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 00:33

ReedGuy

Queezle, first off slide one stick by one side of the cross in your bout(s) you tied with string when measuring out the warp on your reel or board, then slide the other stick in to the other side of the cross. Secure the ends with string, leaving a 1/2 gap between sticks and now you won't have the warp slide off the ends. Once you have the lease sticks in place and ends tied you can cut the string out that held the cross on the warp reel. I secure the sticks to the beam with a cord on each end. I believe you can use them for either BTF of FTB warping. Some folks use two sets of sticks, I only use one myself and they are secured to the back beam with cord since I warp from the back. If your warping  from the front secure them to the breast beam and maybe you want the reed removed from the beater and laid flat across some sticks that straddle your loom frame when threading, maybe not. I would thread the reed by coming from below with the hook. Depends on your comfort with your particular loom. I would secure another set to the back beam and thread each group in the heddles and tie the groups together and then later through the sticks on the back beam (alternate groups over and under) then tie to rod. Tension everything good and wind. Maybe someone else familiar with FTB and lease sticks has another way.

In this particular set up I have sectionals, so the lease sticks are just for the cross so I can thread the heddles in proper order. I also use tape on the ends of each section to hold the sequence of threads as they were wound.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:36

sally orgren

I slide my lease sticks right into the cross while the warp is on the board. Secure the ends of the lease sticks so the warp cannot slide off.

Keep your warp bouts small. And you only need one cross in any length warp, or at most two. (If two, one cross should be on each end of the warp, if you plan to fold it in half, to double it.)

In your description, you mention 4 crosses, but I wasn't sure if you actually meant choke ties or if you really DID mean 4 crosses. (If you really had 4 crosses, that is probably the source of your big tangle. Easy to avoid next time!)

If you want to try lease sticks with front-to-back warping, just secure your sticks at the front of the loom. I just tie mine on to the beam. Some people run a long stick from their front beam to their back beam, and rest their sticks on that.

Keep in mind, you want your sticks fairly close to what you will be threading first — the heddles (back-to-front) or the reed (front-to-back). In ReedGuy's photos, his sticks are way back at the beam because he is ready to weave, but I'll bet when he threads back-to-front, he will move them much closer to the back side of his castle.

The lease sticks make it easy to see the order of the threads whichever direction you are threading, and this tool is especially helpful for beginners.

-------

Best question I ever heard asked at a workshop...how many warps do you create in a year? If a weaver answered with a high number, I pay attention to that person's warping method! 

 

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:29

ReedGuy

Sally I take my full harnass to the back of the loom with a type of harnass craddle slung under the top shaft bars and over the loom cross member support overhead and then brass pins that hold the bottom shaft bars even. Pins also keep the heddles from sliding off. But really a cord should be secured on the the shaft bars to prevent the slipping off of heddles. I put by bench inside the loom. I've learned to just leave all the heddles on the shafts as they help stabilize a narrow warp, by pulling a few of the extras to the sides before threading begins. I only put one heddle cord on the top shaft bars. Just as easy to take a heddle and wrap an elastic around it on the ends of the bottom bars to prevent the heddle ends from slipping off. Anyway the craddle and pins are later used to tie the harnass cords on when I bring the harness back under the jack frame. But yes the sticks need to be right up behind the harnass.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:41

Queezle

I'm going to try this -- I always sort-of hid my lease sticks so I wouldn't feel bad about not using them.  This does sound easier than trying to pick the top thread in my hand.    Maybe I'll even be brave enough for back-to-front, but I get your point that they are useful both ways.  

Thanks so much for the excellent explanations.                                                        

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:50

NancyHassel

Hi igaff - Narrower warps (an 8 or 10 inch wide scarf) are easier to warp and thick cotton yarn tends to be easier to beam than the thinner yarns. The yarn for my first project was Lily's Sugar N'Cream. It is worsted weight cotton available at many craft stores. It is sett 6 epi for lace, 8 epi for plain weave, and 10 epi for twill. The yarn was cheap and easy to get onto the loom. The weaving was fast and my project still hangs proudly in my office. It gave me the confidence to try a thinner yarn for my next project. Nancy
Wed, 05/01/2013 - 20:37

midwifehc

Jac-I have to say, that as a new weaver (3 months), I find YOUR responses to this thread very distasteful, with the personal attacks. As a new weaver, and one who believes in reading everything, and trying to understand the best way to do things from the start, I have read through almost every page of this forum's posts. I have come to respect the opinions of a few on this site, mainly Sara, Laura, and Joanne, for their vast experience and knowledge. In fact, if it wasn't for their posts, and reassurances that it would be no problem to tie up,  I would never have bought a countermarch loom (and I love my loom BTW) True, Sara has very strong opinions about how to do things...but who wouldn't after decades of experience. She never attacked the OP, she just strongly recommended a different way to do things, obviously what she thinks is the best way, but calling her a bully in an open forum is uncalled for, and really ugly. 

I do warp back to front, with the lease sticks, as why not learn the traditional way of doing things that have stood the test of time. It's slow going, but my threads are in order and no tangled messes. I can't imagine holding all those threads in my hand...there is no way they would not get tangled. Maybe others have more dexterity than I, so it works for them. Perhaps the OP would not have had to cut off and throw away her warp if the had worked BTF, it is possible, isn't it?

Of course there are many ways to get to the same end, but perhaps they are not all equal. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I tend to respect the wisdom of experience. For me it makes sense to learn the traditional tried and true ways to learn...if it's worked for so long, there must be a reason.

Wed, 05/01/2013 - 23:29

igaff (not verified)

Hi Nancy,

Thank you.  I did just finish the Craftys class and wove 3 pillows with 2 ply wool.  It was certainly easier and any tangles were gone just by pulling softly.  

I did something very wrong with this warp and have started over - so we shall see (fingers crossed).

 

Wed, 05/01/2013 - 23:35

igaff (not verified)

Hi Jac,

As new weaver also, I did use lease sticks and warped front to back.  I am not sorry I had to cut the warp off, I have learned a lot  Everyone here has been wonderful - I am determined to get it!  I took the craftys class, FABULOUS, the insructor taught back to front, but I will get to that part another time.

If you can, as a new weaver, try the class - I learned so much and have gone back with the tangle warp and will be able to go back forever.

Irene

 

Thu, 05/02/2013 - 01:37

teewers (not verified)

May be that people are using different types of loom (e.g. jack loom versus countermarch loom).  I’m a pretty new weaver myself.  My first two looms (still used and loved) are old jack looms.  I can’t easily remove the front beam, the distance from front to back is about 45 inches, I can’t sit in the loom to thread, and even if I could, the harnesses are fixed in position, and my arms aren’t long enough to reach through them to the back.  Hate to say it, but the best way I’ve found is to work front to back.  I hold the lease cross spread across my left hand (gets tricky when the phone rings in the other room), pull one thread at a time, and thread first the reed, then the appropriate heddle.  Once all threaded, I insert a lease stick in each plain weave shed, tie the two together and to the loom, and then wind on.  Never thought about the possibility of using the lease sticks in front of the reed in place of my left hand – wow!!  After reading through the the discussion above, I think I even have a pretty good idea of how to do it, so I plan to try that on my next jack loom project.  Thank you -

Thu, 05/02/2013 - 02:10

NancyHassel

YouTube Video: How to Warp a Floor Loom from Front to Back http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etJmqjBY0sY
Thu, 05/02/2013 - 03:03

JacRoyce

I  just want to be clear: I never said that it was wrong to warp back-to-front. If you look at my comments, you'll find that I consistently acknowledge that there is more than one way to warp, more than one type of loom that works very well, etc. [As a published historian, I admit that I find adamant-yet-incorrect pronouncements provocative...] I have never demeaned any weaver in reaction to her/his weaving or the quality of her/his question. My responses to weavers' questions are always intended to help, and do come from a background of experience.  

I have never argued that one should tear pages out of a book. [When acknowleged, the book in question has always been Deborah Chandler's Learning to Weave.]

What I said can be boiled down to: Don't be mean. 

If you think it's mean to ask mean people to stop being mean, I guess we're at a standstill. If you think I over-reacted, you might change your mind if you research the history of comments on this site. At any rate, I'm done with this thread. I will, however, continue to defend those who are either bullied or lied to. 

And Thank You to all the folks who have privately messaged me with their support. Be Excellent to Each Other.

 

Thu, 05/02/2013 - 09:45

ReedGuy

I have learned a lot from several books, but for my particular loom the 'Big Book of Weaving' fits my circumstances since my loom is built in the Swedish countermarch style. I have also learned from many of experienced weavers here that sell looms. They not only sell looms, but they have used all manner of looms out there for decades. These folks have also helped me in making changes to my loom that always proved beneficial, since mine is home built. I am first and formost a wood worker. What a greater way to build with wood, than to build a loom and support equipment. So although some folks can come off a little abrasive at times, they are quite helpful. Some folks could use a little more finesse in their typed word because preaching and teaching are not the same. Also making accusations and making a rant on it are not too welcome. ;)

Thu, 05/02/2013 - 23:00

Sara von Tresckow

Geez, I haven't been here for a few days -  if anyone actually read what I posted, I merely stated firmly that every weaver should consider threading/sleying their loom out of lease sticks rather than threads held in the fingers.

I thought that many front to back warpers did this and fastened those sticks at the front or going the other way, fasten them at the back.

Any interpretations as to which warping method I was forcing on anyone are in some peoples' imagination.

Fri, 05/03/2013 - 02:19

Dawn McCarthy

I am with Sara on the always recurring debate about lease sticks. I get the willies when I see in a certain book suggesting that people hold the cross in their fingers irreguardless (pardon spelling it is late) of warp width/epi - I know for me, the phone will ring, a kid will be bleeding and then I am toast and so is my warp!  It takes gentle coaxing to get my students used to the idea of lease sticks, I explain why they are beneficial and they humor me and use them. For 90% of them they will continue the practice.  I also teach warping back to front and briefly describe afterwards front to back and why I personally prefer back to front. When you are production weaving you resort to the most consistent, effective and reliable methods for optimal results.  For me - that means lease sticks and B to F, for you that may be some other way. 

Weaving is a very old craft and it is hard with the adaptations of newer looms and lost terminology to get a consistent base of reference.  Whatever method you choose to use, do not be afraid of learning traditional formal terminology and technique, it will add to your repertoire and although you may prefer a certain style, you will be familiar with other techniques when the need arises.  This is not a battle of what is better, accept that you have a preference but also research traditional and industrial methods, there is a reason things are done in a particular way and pass that knowledge on.  Share information and have a healthy respect for the craft.  I am just grateful to be involved (via computer) with so many weavers, it is a wonderful thing and thank you to all for sharing your experiences and opinions.

Dawn

 

Fri, 05/03/2013 - 02:36

Dawn McCarthy

Oooh, very nice looking warp ReedGuy!

Dawn

Fri, 05/03/2013 - 08:09

ReedGuy

Thanks Dawn,

The warp is my current table cloth project. I like wide cloth. :)

Fri, 05/03/2013 - 15:14

Queezle

Thanks for all the help - the youtube was very helpful.  Two mysteries solved - the raddle and the lease sticks.  Big Aha moment here. 

Now, has anyone made a home-made raddle for a Mighty Wolf?

Fri, 05/03/2013 - 15:21

sarahnopp (not verified)

I do not have a Mighty Wolf, but I have made raddles for my looms. It is just a length of wood with finishing nails every inch.

Fri, 05/03/2013 - 15:35

endorph

but I don't use a raddle - I rough sley with the reed instead. But as Sarahnopp said they are easy to make. good luck
Fri, 05/03/2013 - 15:50

ReedGuy

Queezle, you can make the raddle. You can make one using dowel, nails or SS 1/8" rod, you name it. One doesn't have to always buy weaving equipment. Just have a look around the net and see how simple this device is. ;)

Fri, 05/03/2013 - 16:12

Queezle

The one issue with the mighty wolf is that the beam is not flat.  The schacht one has little support pieces that hold it to the angled beam.  But even that should be pretty simple.

Again, I just love this community.  You are all awesome - so helpful - I'm very grateful to have found a new cyberhome.

Fri, 05/03/2013 - 16:35

ReedGuy

First, I'm not familiar with the construction of your loom, so there may be restrictions I do not understand. But here goes. If you ever looked at Ed Worst's book 'Foot Powered Loom Weaving', he secured his with cord to the frame. I would have lease sticks back there by the beam and the raddle more forward. If there is a set of uprights to the frame of the loom it can be secured with cord. If it's ahead of the lease sticks it can be released by taking the top off and removing the cords that secure it and dropped below the warp and pulled out the side without disturbing the warp. 

Worst's book is in digital online archives. Some have the whole book others just sections. But you only need to look at it for curiosity sake.

Fri, 05/03/2013 - 17:06

gailc

I made the raddle for my Baby wolf using corner molding instead of a flat piece of wood.  I hold it on with those adjustable clamps.

Fri, 05/03/2013 - 17:40

Gemma (not verified)

Sara, with all due respect it wasn't what was said, it was how it was said.  Every weaver is entitled to strive for their own level of satisfaction.  Suggesting that someone else's chosen project is not "real cloth" ( or, as you suggested in a previous discussion, that weaving with 3/2 pearl cotton is somehow inferior) adds nothing to the conversation except to remind others of your status as a professional.  There's nothing wrong with a weaver who enjoys weaving as a hobby and/or whose lifestyle is geared to quick and easy projects. Can't we all just get along?

Fri, 05/03/2013 - 20:50

NancyHassel

More thoughts on the tangle bewtween the choke tie and the reed - I like to section my warp threads into a bunch of sections - a choke tie every 2 inches (48 threads if threading 24epi) and then (maybe) a choke tie further away encompassing the entire width of the warp. Grouping the warp threads limits the number that can tangle with each other. I use lease sticks for threading - one lease stick on each side of the cross & tied together at both ends with the stick furthest from the reed hung from the castle with 18 inch strings. I ALWAYS keep a loose thread through the cross - even after I'm done with the lease sticks and have started to weave the first inch. That way if there is a big problem (or a lease stick disaster) I can reclaim the thread order. I am in the process of warping from front to back for the first time in a long time because I'm using a special warp from a "boutique dyer." The warp came without a cross. This is common among the creative dyers. Some of those wonderful people also create their warp sequence by looking among the available threads and selecting the one that looks like it fits as they thread the reed. Their end results can be breathtaking and they probably laugh when things do not work out. I envy those people and sometimes wonder if they also run barefoot in the snow. I also want to encourage them to share their techniques with me. Let us all be friends and recognize our differences.
Fri, 05/03/2013 - 21:58

sally orgren

OK. I was helping a guildmate beam a warp and realized we didn't have a raddle on hand. So I just used cable ties around the back beam at the desired increments.

I actually own three different size raddles, so it is worth making a nice one if you are in this for the long haul!

P.S. This worked for 10/2 cotton, but I wouldn't try it with fine silk or linen. ;-)

Fri, 05/03/2013 - 22:59

sandra.eberhar…

If you use screw eyes instead of finish nails, you can use a 1/4 dowel to secure the threads in the raddle.  An allen wrench in a drill drives screw eyes very quickly.

Fri, 05/03/2013 - 23:14

ReedGuy

If you do use button eyes try to find some that are fully close looped. Otherwise, if the warp is a little slack or in some way twists about the eye like it sometimes can in a raddle, you will find your warp snagging on the neck of those eyes.

Fri, 05/03/2013 - 23:16

sandra.eberhar…

I don't make a cross when I use a sectional beam.  I put a piece of masking take on each section as I complete it, and thread from that tape.  This is a technique I got from the Leclerc web site, and it works very well.  You have to make sure the tap doesn't get twisted.

 I agree with the comments that the idea that there is one, best, way that we should all use is nonesense, and shows ignorance.  We are fortunate to have a lot of different types of equipment and methods to use.  We are fortunate to have resources like this to learn from.  There are people who make their living from their weaving or from equipment sales, post on this site, and do not seem to need to criticize and demean others.  I have stopped posting on this site several times because i have been the target of this flame attack, and I wonder how many other people have left and not come back.