Hello All

I am new to card weaving, I was trying a pattern from steinmaus but instead of S or Z there were arrows.  After trying both ways and then getting confused over whether it's A-D or D-A at the top of the cards.  I have ended up with the pattern underneath or the pattern only on one side of the weaving.    Please Help!!!!!!

Comments

Mon, 08/12/2013 - 19:38

sally orgren

but I would send my first inquiry to the person who originated the pattern.

It's not just the threading of the cards, but also the rotation, and sometimes parts of the deck might rotate one way, when the rest rotate differently.

Also, the cards can be "flipped" to change their orientation.

If you don't mind playing with the cards, just do a process of elimination. Write down each thing you try, (A-D on top, D-A on top, cards facing left, cards facing right, etc.), eliminating the non-performing options until you get the pattern on top, all the way across.

Mon, 08/12/2013 - 23:58

Weavingholiday

Trying out different card positions is a good way to learn how things interrelate in card weaving, but if you are not sure you want to do that, you could also start with some tablet weaving software such as is at

http://www.malarkycrafts.com/TabletWeaverSW.asp

and just fiddle with the pattern there?

Some threaded-in patterns are really only nice on one side, so it may be that you are ok, if upside down?

Good luck!

Mon, 08/12/2013 - 23:58

Weavingholiday

Trying out different card positions is a good way to learn how things interrelate in card weaving, but if you are not sure you want to do that, you could also start with some tablet weaving software such as is at

http://www.malarkycrafts.com/TabletWeaverSW.asp

and just fiddle with the pattern there?

Some threaded-in patterns are really only nice on one side, so it may be that you are ok, if upside down?

Good luck!

Tue, 08/13/2013 - 00:20

sally orgren

it might be that you need to flip the other half of the deck, then figure out if the deck rotates all the same or not. 

Again, it's hard to tell much without seeing the pattern, and "treadling" (rotation) instructions. Our guild just had John Mullarkey for a workshop, and the group thought he was excellent. (Saint Louis based, U.S.)

Tue, 08/13/2013 - 00:37

Weavingholiday

There are so many different things you can do with tablets, it really is pretty much impossible to even try to guess what the specific issues are. When I first started weaving threaded-in patterns, I was totally baffled because I thought I had followed the instructions carefully, but ended up with the (otherwise perfectly formed) design on the bottom of the band as it sat on the loom. Luckily, a friend took a look and figured out what I had done pretty quickly, but she really needed to see the pattern and the loom and work to figure it out. And she was kind enough not to laugh at me, too ;)

I am wondering, if you are new to card weaving, have you tried working though a few patterns in a beginning tablet weaving book yet? Because patterns and instructions are a long way from being standardized, getting to know your work by playing around can be time well spent? Sally's suggestions could not only help you figure this pattern out, but get a sense of things that will stand you in good stead in the future.

Things are probably a bit frustrating right now, but hang in there, when things click, you will have a lot of fun with this weaving!

Tue, 08/13/2013 - 00:37

Weavingholiday

There are so many different things you can do with tablets, it really is pretty much impossible to even try to guess what the specific issues are. When I first started weaving threaded-in patterns, I was totally baffled because I thought I had followed the instructions carefully, but ended up with the (otherwise perfectly formed) design on the bottom of the band as it sat on the loom. Luckily, a friend took a look and figured out what I had done pretty quickly, but she really needed to see the pattern and the loom and work to figure it out. And she was kind enough not to laugh at me, too ;)

I am wondering, if you are new to card weaving, have you tried working though a few patterns in a beginning tablet weaving book yet? Because patterns and instructions are a long way from being standardized, getting to know your work by playing around can be time well spent? Sally's suggestions could not only help you figure this pattern out, but get a sense of things that will stand you in good stead in the future.

Things are probably a bit frustrating right now, but hang in there, when things click, you will have a lot of fun with this weaving!

Wed, 08/14/2013 - 07:26

somer72

I would  like to say a big thank you to everyone for their advice. I've actualy managed to complete something (after a bit of fiddling).  My fingers are now itching to start another.  

Again thank you all.

Thu, 08/15/2013 - 03:19

rosearbor (not verified)

Hi,  

Steimaus' webpage also has the GTT (Guntram's Tablet Thingy) files to download and play with.  If you have the opportunity to do so, it can be very instructive.  

This link is in English, and explains several ways of drafting that you'll encounter on his site. 

http://www.steinmaus.de/Mittelalter/weben/anleitung/pebbleweave.html

The thing to remember is that depending on what drafting system is being used, the S and Z (or arrow) notations can refer to either the threading, or card postion (tilt).  It also depends on how you are observing the cards - my statements are based on the assumption that the weaver is sitting at the working end of the warp.  There are a number of ways you can do tablet weaving, and the orientation can differ based on your point of reference.  

Most Western books refer to threading, whereas many European instructions refer to the card position, or tilt.  They are always the exact opposite of each other.  An S threaded card will "tilt" in the Z direction, and vice versa.  As near as I can tell, an arrow pointing left is S-threading and pointing right is Z threading. (I havent got my PC right now to verify this.)

An S threaded card makes a diagonal line leaning right (like the center line of the Z) when turned forward, and the line leans left (like an S) when turned backward.   This is why the underside of your pattern might be the what you are looking for - everything is exactly reversed if you get the threading opposite.  It's not a bad thing, just a different drafting system. The system of looking at the tilt of the cards might actually be a little more intuitive - a Z tilted card makes a Z-diagonal line in the pattern going forward, and reverses direction if you turn it backward.  It's easy to see the tilt of the cards from above when you have them under slight tension- they naturally tilt either left or right depending on how the threads run through them. 

I started with Crocketts book and struggled mightily with the ABCD marking  and trying to keep it straight.  I have switched to thinking and re-writing patterns with the card position format, and using unmarked tablets.  I simply keep in mind that the color which will show is the one that crosses the top as I turn the card, and the lines will move in the direction of the card tilt going forward, and the opposite direction if I turn them back.  It makes it much easier for me to think about.

Thu, 08/15/2013 - 14:10

sally orgren

Rosearbor,

This was so well stated, I am printing it out and keeping it with my tablet weaving files! 

Are there any tablet-weaving drafting programs that work on a MAC?

Fri, 08/16/2013 - 00:40

rosearbor (not verified)

 

Thanks Sally!

The only program I have ever been able to use native with my Mac is The Loomy Bin's Card Weaver Java applet.  www.theloomybin.com.  The code was written about 2001, and is sometimes really flaky with Safari and Firefox. You have to enable Java to make it work  (and then dont forget to disable it when you're done!).

I just tested it again this evening, and I dont know if the author has been making changes, or if it is because Java is updated about once a month now, but the Design feature has disappeared from the applet on the Mac.  It still appears in my PC window :(.  

But I will say that even playing with the three designs she makes available are very enlightening as to how the colors and lines move through the design. Click in the grey background to se the ABCD notation, and play with turning the cards forward and back to see how the band appears.  She has a very good online manual, too, and some nice explanation pages about Card Weaving.  

I was able to create this pattern before the Design button broke.  so sad.

Pattern created at theloomybin.com

Fri, 08/16/2013 - 01:00

rosearbor (not verified)

Well, I got to poking around further on Gudrun's web site, and found she has a Unix version of the Java applet that will work on a Mac.  I had to bypass my security feature to run it since it isn’t a download from the app store, but it does have the design button!  Youll have to decide if you want to try it or not...

http://www.theloomybin.com/cw/download/index_2002.html

Fri, 08/16/2013 - 13:24

sally orgren

I downloaded it this morning, along with the tutorial/manual. Can't wait. I am already designing my next pattern. Thank you so VERY much!

Fri, 08/16/2013 - 14:36

Weavingholiday

Rosearbor, that is a wonderful design, hope you will post a picture when you get into weaving it?

I have only ever been able to get the Unix version of that software to run, and it is a bit fussy to get that to download and install. The Mac compatibility is another issue, too.

Being in a rush half the time, I did find the software on the Malarky site installed well for me, but even there he has a bit of info about potential issues and work arounds.

Since all this TW design software is being offered for free, it is hard to grumble, though.

Keep thinking how cool would it be if there was an app for my phone, and I could fiddle with designs on the bus or during breaks, etc... But not sure there is an enormous market to fuel such things?

Fri, 08/16/2013 - 15:35

rosearbor (not verified)

I'm with you in that it's given away for free, and I'm not going to complain!  I am very appreciative of Gudrun Polack, John Malarky, and Guntram, who wrote GTT years ago.  I have all their programs and find them extremely useful.  But I'm pretty sure the market is really tiny...

I wish I had program experience and knew more about these things and could program cool graphics.  If you look at the tablet weaving files in a text program, you can see they are really quite simple - in fact, if you figure out how to read them you can follow the text files, but the software does the visualization very nicely.  

Fri, 08/16/2013 - 16:46

Weavingholiday

Yes, even though the rendering is quite basic, these programs let you see what changes will do quite quickly and painlessy, so experimenting is a lot more do-able than if you render with coloured pencil on graph paper.

And I know I can mess up with the graph paper, but they predict outcomes reliably!

 

 

Fri, 08/16/2013 - 22:46

sally orgren

Ok. I downloaded the software and have been playing with it. I am trying to work out a pattern. My question is, how does the software handle some cards turning forward, some turning backwards, all in the same row? Is the loomybin software only designed for the cards to turn in the same direction, or can I flip the cards before "weaving" each row to simulate this?

Fri, 08/16/2013 - 23:19

sally orgren

I want to weave the band above. Here is all the farther I have gotten with the software. To achieve the pattern you see below, I changed the turning direction of certain cards after 2 rows. (Started with the outer few, rotated forward two rows, added the next 4 cards, rotated the two rows, etc).

I know I am so close...

 

Fri, 08/16/2013 - 23:21

sally orgren

came from a recent Weavo project post:

http://www.weavolution.com/project/weavingholiday/threaded-tablet-woven-band

Sat, 08/17/2013 - 13:00

rosearbor (not verified)

You have it correct- you have to flip the diagonal lines in the weaving software (the equivalent of flipping the cards).  Use her Diamonds pattern and unweave it row by row and watch the diagonal lines at the bottom.

Then open the pattern found in the lib folder in a text editor like TextMate or TextEdit or Word and look at the diagonals in the text.  

 Gudrun has shared a many more files in her gallery too.  http://www.theloomybin.com/cw/libindex.html 

There are a couple of German websites that have made GTT files available. Another that uses her own notation- I think she actually does them in Excel - but they are pretty easy to figure out.  http://www.messingbrettchen.de/html/mehr_borten.html  There is one called Keltenkordel on that site that looks somewhat like the pattern you are trying to achieve.  Bottom row, 5th from right, click and then select Webrief (pattern) on the next page.

GTT files can be opened in a text editor too.  In this case he lays out all the cards, with the color order of each, then at the bottom he designates the turning order of the cards with dots and Xes.  I'd have to look and figure which is which, but you can read one of those and figure out a pattern too.  If you need links to GTT files I can find them.

Fun stuff, you can really go down the rabbit hole!

 

Sat, 08/17/2013 - 17:15

rosearbor (not verified)

Card flipping does not always work with threaded in patterns!!!  I should have remembered that.  When I say threaded in, I mean the colors can change per card, and you can have unbalanced cards, like 3 colors  to 1.Threaded in pattern cards have to be turned forwards or backwards individually or in packs. you cant always just flip the threading direction S or Z, because it still matters as to which color is coming up next.  I havent figured out how to do that in the Loomy Bin software, although I can see it  in some of the text files.  This is making me crayzee....

Sat, 08/17/2013 - 17:34

Weavingholiday

I have not figured that out either, so far, have cheated by breaking patterns into small areas that all turn together, then sort of gluing things together on paper when I print a reference. Not the best solution, and sometimes unexpected things happen where pattern parts join together. But believe this is my failure, not the software.

Sun, 08/18/2013 - 11:47

Woodburner

In the loomy bin software, you click on the slanted lines to flip the cards. Clicking on the background in the working window brings up markers for which cards to flip in that row, and which way the whole pack is turned.

I love playing around with loomy bin, but still find that I need to work out my threading on paper, as well as play around to get the pattern on the top!

eta forgot to say, diamonds in 3 colours, (2,1,1) are a good way to get to grips with threaded in patterns. As long as you keep things symetrical, whatever pattern comes out will be nice!

Tue, 08/20/2013 - 14:11

sally orgren

Okay. I threaded up the loom as shown in the TOP colored pencil illustration in the photo, and began turning, but one part of the design is not coming up. 

On the band, the dark outline at the top of the curved line, in the center portion of the design, is not showing. Everything else appears to be there.

Can anyone tell me what I am doing wrong?

NotQuietCorret

I am following the turning chart for pattern 1 on the draft. (I tried to upload a screen capture, no dice.) I turn the 8 left most cards backward 2X, all else forward, then the left 10 backward, all else forward 2X. Then the right 10 backward, all else forward 2X. Finally, the last 8 backward, the rest forward 2X. 

FYI, I may replace the orange with yellow. I am not happy with my choice in orange, it is too close in value to the red, and this design needs more contrast. (The danger of selecting colors at night instead of the daytime ;-)

Tue, 08/20/2013 - 16:13

Weavingholiday

I am rushing, so this is just a thought, not a well-thought-out answer, but, for the cards where the colour that is showing up is not what you need, it might be that you need to flip the crds instead of changing direction, or it might be you need to change direction rather than flip?

If you watch where the thread you want on top is going, you will likely know what the answer is pretty quickly, but it sounds like maybe it is "going under" when you want it to be coming up, which is (as you already know, just saying this part for completeness) going to be a function of the position of the thread and the direction of the turn, together?

In my limited brain, I sometimes find it helps to isolate the rascally bit by using little binder clips or similar to take the well-behaved cards off to the side, then just manipulate the rascally ones to be able to focus on their issues? Soemtimes help if you give the loom a time-out, too ;)

Tue, 08/20/2013 - 22:33

rosearbor (not verified)

Its the order of ABCD you have threaded in your draft- in all the software programs I've played around with, A is at the bottom, D is at the top of the diagram.  Try turning the cards exactly backwards of how you are doing it now. Try the 8 rightmost cards backward 2x, then the right 10 back 2x, etc.  This pattern is extremely sensitive to starting postion of your dark line - Ramshorn is the same way. 

The other thing you can do is throw out the reliance on ABCD.  Move the cards so the left most pattern card (#6) has the blue thread at the top hole closest to you.  Pattern card seven should have a background color in the top hole closest to you, and if you turn the card forward, the blue should be the next up. Pattern card 8 should have background, background, blue, background. Ignore the ABCD stuff and just turn the packs once you get everything arranged.  You can look at Sheelagh Lewins website and see how she shows the cards threaded - this pattern makes diagonal lines if you just continue to turn it, but she mentions you have to be careful about when you start turning the cards.

The color in the top hole which crosses OVER the weft when you turn the card is what shows.  This is how you predict which color will come to the top, whether you are going forward or back.  If the threading direction is all ok, then the lines should move in the directions you want.

Tip for quickly checking your patterns- use bamboo skewers cut into small pieces to check for problems.

Bamboo skewers as temporary weft in tablet weaving
Bamboo skewers as temporary weft in tablet weaving

Fri, 08/23/2013 - 18:34

sally orgren

Okay, I replaced the orange with a lighter orange (much better!) and double checked my turns. Same problem. I tried turning the inside set of cards instead, and I got the design you see just above the original.

In looking at the first pattern, I am thinking I am close, but not only am I missing the top of the curvy line, it is also not centered. What if I start 2 turns away from my current "starting" position? (So what is on the bottom of my start position is now on top?) I think I am going to try that next... Stay tuned. I am soooooo close.

NotQuiteRight2

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 00:49

rosearbor (not verified)

It's definitely not centered.  The part that is "outside" the braid has three threads on one side, and only one on the other.  It should have 2 on each side.  

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 02:16

sally orgren

I was just starting in the wrong place. It wasn't a full two turns, my starting point was just one turn away from my original starting point. And I am getting really good at figuring out how to unweave... ;-)

MANY thanks for all the help on this!

Just Right!

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 02:55

Weavingholiday

That is wonderful, what a great interplay between the pattern and the colour you have chosen. Wish I had checked in a bit earlier, your "Not quite right 2" looks pretty close to something I once did, which did turn out to be a starting point issue, too :) But you did not need any help to solve it, and it is just lovely!

 

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 14:19

rosearbor (not verified)

It is GORGEOUS!!!!  Great choices on the colors.

I read once that tablet weaving is like having a tiny drawloom in your hands, albeit with some limitations.  For 4 hole cards, you can only have at most 4 colors to choose from per pick per tablet "heddle", but there are also limitations as to which colors are next in your picks (at any one time you can only choose from 3 colors).  Add into the mix that you have direction in the pattern from twining and the threading direction, and it's absolutely mindboggling in both what you can do, and in what you can mess up!

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 20:16

sally orgren

is the same as the thing that confounds me — it looks so simple when you are doing it correctly, but if you miss one tiny detail, it can be maddeningly frustrating trying to analyze all the variables. 

I DO think once you get it figured out, tablet weaving is way easier than pick-up on the Inkle — at least, the pick-up patterns I seem to design for myself, anyway!

Thu, 04/03/2014 - 23:15

warpedw

This is really beautiful.  I love the shading and the violet is the perfect dark for this.  Nice job!!