Just to put the cat among the pigeons a bit........Nepalese weavers have a technique whereby they can add another 2 harnesses to their usual 2 harness looms, in the middle of a warp. It suddenly struck me that this is a technique that rigid heddlers can use! I don't have the book handy to see exactly what twill weaves they use this with, but commonsense dictates that the new warps should go through the slots of the original heddle.

Since I have my knitters loom already warped up with the 2 heddle block on it, I shall go and warp up the second heddle to try this out and report back tomorrow on the success (or not) of this idea ( its evening in Australia so you will have to be patient!). At the moment I can't see any reason why in theory it shouldn't work, but perhaps I'm over optimistic and need to find the instructions, lol!

Cheers, Caroline

Comments

Fri, 06/19/2009 - 12:42

claudia (not verified)

Caroline, Please keep us posted. If you can put up the project pictures either here or on your project page that would be great. There are lots of people asking about using 2 heddles, I'll try to send them over here and specifically to your project page. Happy weaving, Claudia, Weavolution co-founder and rh mom
Fri, 06/19/2009 - 14:35

Caroline (not verified)

I've located the book, its called  "The Nettle In Nepal" and is a monograph by Susi Dunsmore for some private charitable organisation in the UK. The book is only available in the UK; I have relatives there so was able to order online from WH Smith and get it sent to them to forward on to me. I don't think Ms Dunsmore is a weaver so its not quite as straightforward as it first appears. The loom used is a two harness loom with foot peddles to change shafts, set up like the simple 2 harness rug loom, where if one harness goes down, the other has to come up. The two extra heddles would have to go in after that, but the foot peddles do not correspond with the order of the 4 harnesses. Tabby is woven with harnesses 1+4 then 2+3.  I will try to reproduce this on a frame loom first then set it up on a RH as I can cross check this with several well known twill patterns.  The Weaving Guild in London was involved with this back in the 80s, so perhaps there is someone in the UK who made notes of how this worked.

Once I have worked on it a bit I'll try to post drafts and photos. This is definitely along the lines of Betty Davenports' work and the book on ebay about 3 heddle weaving. Its coming up to midnight here so I must get some ZZZZZZs if I'm to exercise my brain cells tomorrow, lol!

Fri, 06/19/2009 - 16:58

davewhiz (not verified)

See page 68 of Betty Davenport's book "Textures and Patterns for the Rigid heddle Loom".  You can add additional Heddles even after your rigid heddles are threaded and your warp is tied by using String Heddles.  You do this by using a dowel and string loops to pull up the warp at the desired locations.

                 String Heddle

Sat, 06/20/2009 - 01:21

Caroline (not verified)

hi Dave,If you have the book, I would really appreciate some constructive input on this!

The person who wrote this monograph was well aware that the techniques she described were an anomily;  the same weavers do also use backstrap looms with string heddles as per your diagram, for twills and pickup.

This technique is used on a frame loom with heddle-strung harnesses similar to a rug or barn loom and operated by treadles. The tie-up to the treadles, once the extra harness is added, does not correspond to their respective shaft numbers, although the draft and the draw down are conventional.

Two x  2 harnesses in tandem is the nearest we are going to find to using 2 rigid heddles together, which makes their technique worth examining, and I certainly will not poopoo any methodology that has survived hundreds of years, even if it turns out in the end to have little practical application to modern rigid heddle techniques. The weavers who have developed this obviously see an advantage in time and effort to continue with it for this long, as they do not weave in complete isolation and do have contact with other weavers using more standard techniques. I'm happy to see where this leads, and if it can help us become more enterprising in our own weaving.

If the author has made a mistake in recording the technique, all that has happened is that I will have learned a little more about what is possible and what is not possible - the time is not wasted. But if the author is right, and this can simplify things for us, then we all benefit!

One thing I have noticed already is that the weavers use 3 shed sticks to separate the warp, and the harnesses go either side of the middle one. Diagrams/photos will follow as I check this out. The monograph is not marked as copywrite, but I prefer not to risk using someones work without permission.

 

 

 

Mon, 06/22/2009 - 15:26

davewhiz (not verified)

Now you have me thinking.  It occurred to me that if you put a String Heddle in front of both Rigid Heddles you would not be limited to the threads in the slots as long as you made your string loops large enough.  You could setup whatever configuration you wanted with no limitations.  I have not tried this, so I am just theorizing.  It might interfere with the smooth beating of the weft by the front heddle.

Wed, 06/24/2009 - 02:13

Caroline (not verified)

My experiments have hit a "pause" button at the moment. i set the frame loom up with the sheds as she described, which is supposed to be the reverse side of Goose Eye, carefully transposed the draw down to take account of how it had been changed, and the pattern had nothing to do with draw down or the threading, grrrrrrr!  It did however make an attractive broken Twill, when I ran it through a weaving program. But you are right Dave - this does have  implications for multi-shaft threading on a rigid heddle loom, so I shall revisit this in a few days and start experimenting.

Who knows where this could lead?

One thing I did find out was that the method of organising the sheds was efficient. It should work  for RH too!

Wed, 06/24/2009 - 18:38

BridgetJ (not verified)

 I am watching this space!

My main interest in the RH is in how to use it as a portable alternative to a 4-shaft loom, so you can imagine that I'm finding this discussion very interesting.

Thu, 06/25/2009 - 01:52

claudia (not verified)

That was what I was thinking at first Bridget. Then, I did my first plain weave project, just to give my Harp a try and get to know it and now I am hooked on PW for a while. I am looking forward to adding heddles soon. I never realized the alternatives available, how very cool. Claudia, co-founder and list "mom"
Wed, 11/18/2009 - 19:36

jenadina (not verified)

Caroline, have you ever worked on this again?

Mon, 11/30/2009 - 22:43

francorios (not verified)

This might be of interest to readers of this thread

From the files of the rabbitgeek:

10/10/08

4 Harness Conversion for Rigid Heddle Loom - Cheap!

If you want to try twill weave with your rigid heddle, you will have
to add heddles or harnesses. A neat trick was just posted on the internet a few days ago.

Leigh Dudenhoeffer added string heddles and harness sticks to her
rigid heddle loom. This site shows pictures and description of the
conversion.
http://fiberfanaticblog.artisticexpressionsinwoolandglass.com/

Click on "Loom Frame and How to Use Your Table Loom As a 4 Harness Loom!!!"
(two short articles on the page, large pictures)
http://fiberfanaticblog.artisticexpressionsinwoolandglass.com/TableLoom.htm

There is also a VIDEO of weaving on the modified loom 10/09/08
http://fiberfanaticblog.artisticexpressionsinwoolandglass.com/WeavingVideo.htm

The RH actually sits in the holding slot. The string harnesses go
behind the RH since the area in front of the RH is used for the shed.

Be sure to make the recommended visit to
Marla Mallet's website for instructions on primitive loom
construction, heddles, and heddle bars.
http://www.marlamallett.com/loom.htm

Don't put warp through the little holes in the RH, put two threads
through each slot. The RH is used as a reed to maintain spacing. A
comb is used beat/place the weft.

The process is not as fast as using multiple rigid heddles. Advantage is
the cost is low and it uses your existing rigid heddle loom frame. It
give more possibilities to existing equipment for the cost of sticks and string!

It is a very clever application.

Much applause to Leigh Dudenhoeffer for sharing her loom conversion
trick on the internet.

Have a good day!
Franco Rios

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 22:09

Caroline (not verified)

A dose of real life intervened. :-(

I'm currently preparing for a craft fair, which along with the unseasonal extreme heat we are coping with has put a lot of things on hold.

The original looms I was looking at were 2 harness looms:

and this is the original diagram I worked from, trying to reconcile them all. It suggests the extra heddles are on shafts 2 and 3. I warped up according to the diagram but was unable to work out a treadle order to create Goose Eye, the pattern this is supposed to be warped up for. Bear in mind the pattern repeats on the diagram may not be complete.

Any one care to play?

It looks as if its set up for a broken twill.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 22:23

Caroline (not verified)

according to the notes on this:

If you can make sense of this, go for it!

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 22:29

jenadina (not verified)

Thanks for the update! I'd love to play, but well, it looks like greek to me. I like goose-eye a lot though, so I might give it a go someday.

Thu, 11/19/2009 - 00:50

debmcclintock

 So, consider using your rigid heddle stand and frame in a new way. Below is a photo of how I modified my rigid heddle and dropped in a reed and two shafts.  My original plan A was to build a pvc frame around my rigid heddle from which to hang my shafts and reed, but a carpenter friend build me a beautiful frame.  I hung two bamboo poles down below my shafts and treated it as a counterbalance loom so I could change sheeds.  There is some other miscellaneous equipment hung in there that is Lao pattern storage equipment that sorta muddies the picture BUT you get the idea.  Use your RH frame to hold your warp tension, suspend your reed and shafts from something above and voila!  a turbo rigid heddle!  I stopped at twho shafts because I was focused on doing pickup but there is no reason why you could not go up to 4 shafts.  Enjoy!

Here is a side view of the loom, you know the Thai cloth hangers that you see in Southeast Asian stores that you can hang fabric from?  My first converted loom used one of those reeds....I'll have to hunt down that pic, it is on another computer somewhere...

Thu, 11/19/2009 - 02:04

Caroline (not verified)

Thats pretty much what the Nepalese do. The diagrams in my earlier posting are of how the loom is set up for 4 shed weaving, and how the sheds are picked to put on the heddles. The 2 original sheds become 1 and 4 in their set up on treadles one and two, and then they add sheds 2 and 3 and treadles 3 and 4. This is done by hanging the extra heddles over the original harness bar in between the originals, not adding by a new one. Your photo certainly clarifies this!

Thu, 11/19/2009 - 03:57

francorios (not verified)

Y'ALL CRAZY!!! *

But I like it.

Have a good day!

(*Translation: All of you are quite insane!)

Thu, 11/19/2009 - 14:11

debmcclintock

 yes....crazy, but isn't nice to even have folks that come close to understanding what one is describing or trying to do!

Fri, 11/20/2009 - 01:02

claudia (not verified)

I keep coming back here and reading this post and trying to figure it all out.  What a fascinating loom you created Deb.  It's hard for me to see everything but I'm enjoying reading Caroline's notes and looking at the photos you posted.  I have only used a counterbalance loom a couple times, this weaver was born and raised on the jack loom.

Give me time, I'll have questions.  Wished y'all lived a little closer.

Claudia, soggy in DC

Fri, 06/19/2009 - 12:42

claudia (not verified)

Caroline, Please keep us posted. If you can put up the project pictures either here or on your project page that would be great. There are lots of people asking about using 2 heddles, I'll try to send them over here and specifically to your project page. Happy weaving, Claudia, Weavolution co-founder and rh mom
Fri, 06/19/2009 - 14:35

Caroline (not verified)

I've located the book, its called  "The Nettle In Nepal" and is a monograph by Susi Dunsmore for some private charitable organisation in the UK. The book is only available in the UK; I have relatives there so was able to order online from WH Smith and get it sent to them to forward on to me. I don't think Ms Dunsmore is a weaver so its not quite as straightforward as it first appears. The loom used is a two harness loom with foot peddles to change shafts, set up like the simple 2 harness rug loom, where if one harness goes down, the other has to come up. The two extra heddles would have to go in after that, but the foot peddles do not correspond with the order of the 4 harnesses. Tabby is woven with harnesses 1+4 then 2+3.  I will try to reproduce this on a frame loom first then set it up on a RH as I can cross check this with several well known twill patterns.  The Weaving Guild in London was involved with this back in the 80s, so perhaps there is someone in the UK who made notes of how this worked.

Once I have worked on it a bit I'll try to post drafts and photos. This is definitely along the lines of Betty Davenports' work and the book on ebay about 3 heddle weaving. Its coming up to midnight here so I must get some ZZZZZZs if I'm to exercise my brain cells tomorrow, lol!

Fri, 06/19/2009 - 16:58

davewhiz (not verified)

See page 68 of Betty Davenport's book "Textures and Patterns for the Rigid heddle Loom".  You can add additional Heddles even after your rigid heddles are threaded and your warp is tied by using String Heddles.  You do this by using a dowel and string loops to pull up the warp at the desired locations.

                 String Heddle

Sat, 06/20/2009 - 01:21

Caroline (not verified)

hi Dave,If you have the book, I would really appreciate some constructive input on this!

The person who wrote this monograph was well aware that the techniques she described were an anomily;  the same weavers do also use backstrap looms with string heddles as per your diagram, for twills and pickup.

This technique is used on a frame loom with heddle-strung harnesses similar to a rug or barn loom and operated by treadles. The tie-up to the treadles, once the extra harness is added, does not correspond to their respective shaft numbers, although the draft and the draw down are conventional.

Two x  2 harnesses in tandem is the nearest we are going to find to using 2 rigid heddles together, which makes their technique worth examining, and I certainly will not poopoo any methodology that has survived hundreds of years, even if it turns out in the end to have little practical application to modern rigid heddle techniques. The weavers who have developed this obviously see an advantage in time and effort to continue with it for this long, as they do not weave in complete isolation and do have contact with other weavers using more standard techniques. I'm happy to see where this leads, and if it can help us become more enterprising in our own weaving.

If the author has made a mistake in recording the technique, all that has happened is that I will have learned a little more about what is possible and what is not possible - the time is not wasted. But if the author is right, and this can simplify things for us, then we all benefit!

One thing I have noticed already is that the weavers use 3 shed sticks to separate the warp, and the harnesses go either side of the middle one. Diagrams/photos will follow as I check this out. The monograph is not marked as copywrite, but I prefer not to risk using someones work without permission.

 

 

 

Mon, 06/22/2009 - 15:26

davewhiz (not verified)

Now you have me thinking.  It occurred to me that if you put a String Heddle in front of both Rigid Heddles you would not be limited to the threads in the slots as long as you made your string loops large enough.  You could setup whatever configuration you wanted with no limitations.  I have not tried this, so I am just theorizing.  It might interfere with the smooth beating of the weft by the front heddle.

Wed, 06/24/2009 - 02:13

Caroline (not verified)

My experiments have hit a "pause" button at the moment. i set the frame loom up with the sheds as she described, which is supposed to be the reverse side of Goose Eye, carefully transposed the draw down to take account of how it had been changed, and the pattern had nothing to do with draw down or the threading, grrrrrrr!  It did however make an attractive broken Twill, when I ran it through a weaving program. But you are right Dave - this does have  implications for multi-shaft threading on a rigid heddle loom, so I shall revisit this in a few days and start experimenting.

Who knows where this could lead?

One thing I did find out was that the method of organising the sheds was efficient. It should work  for RH too!

Wed, 06/24/2009 - 18:38

BridgetJ (not verified)

 I am watching this space!

My main interest in the RH is in how to use it as a portable alternative to a 4-shaft loom, so you can imagine that I'm finding this discussion very interesting.

Thu, 06/25/2009 - 01:52

claudia (not verified)

That was what I was thinking at first Bridget. Then, I did my first plain weave project, just to give my Harp a try and get to know it and now I am hooked on PW for a while. I am looking forward to adding heddles soon. I never realized the alternatives available, how very cool. Claudia, co-founder and list "mom"
Wed, 11/18/2009 - 19:36

jenadina (not verified)

Caroline, have you ever worked on this again?

Mon, 11/30/2009 - 22:43

francorios (not verified)

This might be of interest to readers of this thread

From the files of the rabbitgeek:

10/10/08

4 Harness Conversion for Rigid Heddle Loom - Cheap!

If you want to try twill weave with your rigid heddle, you will have
to add heddles or harnesses. A neat trick was just posted on the internet a few days ago.

Leigh Dudenhoeffer added string heddles and harness sticks to her
rigid heddle loom. This site shows pictures and description of the
conversion.
http://fiberfanaticblog.artisticexpressionsinwoolandglass.com/

Click on "Loom Frame and How to Use Your Table Loom As a 4 Harness Loom!!!"
(two short articles on the page, large pictures)
http://fiberfanaticblog.artisticexpressionsinwoolandglass.com/TableLoom.htm

There is also a VIDEO of weaving on the modified loom 10/09/08
http://fiberfanaticblog.artisticexpressionsinwoolandglass.com/WeavingVideo.htm

The RH actually sits in the holding slot. The string harnesses go
behind the RH since the area in front of the RH is used for the shed.

Be sure to make the recommended visit to
Marla Mallet's website for instructions on primitive loom
construction, heddles, and heddle bars.
http://www.marlamallett.com/loom.htm

Don't put warp through the little holes in the RH, put two threads
through each slot. The RH is used as a reed to maintain spacing. A
comb is used beat/place the weft.

The process is not as fast as using multiple rigid heddles. Advantage is
the cost is low and it uses your existing rigid heddle loom frame. It
give more possibilities to existing equipment for the cost of sticks and string!

It is a very clever application.

Much applause to Leigh Dudenhoeffer for sharing her loom conversion
trick on the internet.

Have a good day!
Franco Rios

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 22:09

Caroline (not verified)

A dose of real life intervened. :-(

I'm currently preparing for a craft fair, which along with the unseasonal extreme heat we are coping with has put a lot of things on hold.

The original looms I was looking at were 2 harness looms:

and this is the original diagram I worked from, trying to reconcile them all. It suggests the extra heddles are on shafts 2 and 3. I warped up according to the diagram but was unable to work out a treadle order to create Goose Eye, the pattern this is supposed to be warped up for. Bear in mind the pattern repeats on the diagram may not be complete.

Any one care to play?

It looks as if its set up for a broken twill.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 22:23

Caroline (not verified)

according to the notes on this:

If you can make sense of this, go for it!

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 22:29

jenadina (not verified)

Thanks for the update! I'd love to play, but well, it looks like greek to me. I like goose-eye a lot though, so I might give it a go someday.

Thu, 11/19/2009 - 00:50

debmcclintock

 So, consider using your rigid heddle stand and frame in a new way. Below is a photo of how I modified my rigid heddle and dropped in a reed and two shafts.  My original plan A was to build a pvc frame around my rigid heddle from which to hang my shafts and reed, but a carpenter friend build me a beautiful frame.  I hung two bamboo poles down below my shafts and treated it as a counterbalance loom so I could change sheeds.  There is some other miscellaneous equipment hung in there that is Lao pattern storage equipment that sorta muddies the picture BUT you get the idea.  Use your RH frame to hold your warp tension, suspend your reed and shafts from something above and voila!  a turbo rigid heddle!  I stopped at twho shafts because I was focused on doing pickup but there is no reason why you could not go up to 4 shafts.  Enjoy!

Here is a side view of the loom, you know the Thai cloth hangers that you see in Southeast Asian stores that you can hang fabric from?  My first converted loom used one of those reeds....I'll have to hunt down that pic, it is on another computer somewhere...

Thu, 11/19/2009 - 02:04

Caroline (not verified)

Thats pretty much what the Nepalese do. The diagrams in my earlier posting are of how the loom is set up for 4 shed weaving, and how the sheds are picked to put on the heddles. The 2 original sheds become 1 and 4 in their set up on treadles one and two, and then they add sheds 2 and 3 and treadles 3 and 4. This is done by hanging the extra heddles over the original harness bar in between the originals, not adding by a new one. Your photo certainly clarifies this!

Thu, 11/19/2009 - 03:57

francorios (not verified)

Y'ALL CRAZY!!! *

But I like it.

Have a good day!

(*Translation: All of you are quite insane!)

Thu, 11/19/2009 - 14:11

debmcclintock

 yes....crazy, but isn't nice to even have folks that come close to understanding what one is describing or trying to do!

Fri, 11/20/2009 - 01:02

claudia (not verified)

I keep coming back here and reading this post and trying to figure it all out.  What a fascinating loom you created Deb.  It's hard for me to see everything but I'm enjoying reading Caroline's notes and looking at the photos you posted.  I have only used a counterbalance loom a couple times, this weaver was born and raised on the jack loom.

Give me time, I'll have questions.  Wished y'all lived a little closer.

Claudia, soggy in DC