I've had a request to weave a memorial piece for someone from her horse's hair.  I did a little reading, including Kerstin Fröbergs article in Väv.  I wanted to weave this on a warp I would use for another project,  in order to save on costs for my client.

So.. I warped my loom with 8/2 cotton, sett at 20 epi in a goose-eye type twill. Two threads per dent in a 10 dent reed, the floats are 2 threads long.  It's pretty but I think the warp is dominating more than I'd like. This is with 3 picks, so not much of a sample, but I don't have much hair so Im trying to conserve.  I'm weaving it dry, and it doesn't seem like it's going to break. I'm going to try it damp as well.  And I'll try it as a 3-1 twill instead of the 2-2 it is currently, so the floats will be longer.

But I fear this warp is too thick or sett to densely.  I'm not weaving with one strand per pick, more of a little clump thicker than the 8/2 cotton. It's not a big piece so it's ok if it's a little time consuming. It will hang in a shadow box on a wall, so it doesn't have to hold up to the rigors of upholstery.

Kerstin's article recommends 12/2 at 10 ends/ cm, which would be 25 epi.. about the same as one would use for twill, I think.  But she also says to sett it wider than one normall would.

So I'm wondering --

How wide should I sett the 8/2?  

Should I rethink using 8/2 cotton in favor of a thinner yarn?

And finally.. how damp is damp enough. A sprits with water, or a longer soak?

Thanks for any wisdom anyone can share...

 

 

 

Comments

kerstinfroberg

I'm not good at epi (when it comes to details), and I must admit I hate cotton 8/2... However, I think you will want a weft-dominant structure to better show off the hh. (In fact, most "fancy" upholstery I have seen has had some kind of "pattern weft effect" - lace-y weaves, overshot-type weaves...)

As for "damp", im my experience the hair needs to sit in water for at least half an hour before weaving - soaking it in warm water is quicker. When I'm weaving yardage (ie longer weaving sessions) I keep the hh in water while weaving.

If it is going to be a decorative weave, you don't have to think of the "integrity" as much, as the hairs will not be subject to wear. I wove several monk's belt-type weaves with pick-up, leaving very long floats at the back (motive was star constellations), lining them after weaving. Those weaves would not survive a week if used for upholstery... but on the wall, they look good even after 15+ years.

ReedGuy

What will it be used for? It is often woven with linen or wool to. And I have a photo of a sample here using a diamonds that the hair brings out and the warp has long floats on the good side. But it's fine warp yarn, similar to 20/2 cotton, but it's linen. It's also upholstery and upholstery has a dense sett. In this case I'm thinking 48 epi for 20/2 cotton. It's this first one, since hair will not be as strong as the warp yarn.

 

To reduce floats and have more hair, this one to.

Expensive upholstery. ;)

kerstinfroberg

Actually, the hh is usually stronger than the warp (both linen and cotton). I know this because a) I have seen numerous museum examples, and most had worn/broken warps, but not one had broken hairs and b) because there was a professional lab made wear-tests to some trad Swe "odd" combinations. It turned out that both horsehair, (rye) straw, rushes and cow-hair took wear better than the (traditional) warp materials used. (the different materials were not combined in the same pieces)

Incidentally, once cotton became available (here in Sweden), it seems to have been preferred to linen. All the hh fabrics with linen warp that I have seen  were dated to before 1790.

laurafry

Kerstin, do you think the switch was because cotton was cheaper than linen?  Or because cotton was 'new' it became flavour of the month?  Or?

Nice to have the lab tests to see the relative strength of the different fibres. I don't think any of my fibre science books include horsehair so while I assumed it was strong, I had no idea of how to compare it to other fibres.  

cheers,

Laura

kerstinfroberg

Cotton was "the new silk", I guess?!?

Seriously, though: as cotton is a bit more forgiving (as warp) it beacme the new, if not silk, but "luxury" for "hobby" weavers (what word am I searching for? "have to weave or we have no clothes"-weavers, as opposed to professionals). There was a period when cotton was really "the new silk" (I'm waiting for a new book) - apparently having all-cotton tablecloths was the highest status.

As soon as cotton yarn was (relatively) cheaply available, it became the warp yarn of choice - saved hours and money to be able to buy good warp yarn.

- the wear tests were done many years ago; I read about them in a book about weaving with straw. Book must be some 20-25 yrs old by now? (how time flies when ypu are having fun, right?)

ReedGuy

In the fabric shown in my book the warp has more releif (raise) and in this instance is bound to get more wear. Maybe the abbrasion wear is stronger in the hair. I wouldn't think it would be stronger when pulled, but then again hair is strong, even human hair. The hair is often found embroidered to. But wool warp will last longer than cotton. Cotton will rot in the light, so that doesn't help the wear factor. So, I'm not really talking about using cotton, I'm talking wool or linen. Harris tweed with wool is well known for long durability.

Link where they have cotton, silk or linen warp with horse hair weft.

http://www.londonfabriccompany.com/horsehair.asp

And Le Crin   http://www.atelier.co.nz/collections/le-crin/

ingamarie

Thanks for your comments and help.. I will try a bit in a weft faced twill and damp/wet and see how it goes. There won't be any wear on this piece since it's really just a wall piece to memorialize her horse.  The horse had a diamond shaped brand, hence the goose-eye. Kerstin, I saw the monks belt piece you wove and it's really beautiful.

 

laurafry

Sigrid Piroch said the same of the Slovac weavers - when cotton became available, they stopped using linen so much because it was easier to work with and cheaper than linen.  Interesting how things change over time.  :)

cheers,

Laura

kerstinfroberg

another link, to a venerable horsehair mill in England: http://www.johnboydtextiles.co.uk/

and one in Germany: http://horsehairfabrics.com/about.htm

There are also chinese companies, like this one: http://www.horse-hairfabric.com/horse-hair-fabric-horse-tail-lining/horsehair_fabric_dec.htm

I have sample books from both John Boyd and Rotter. The Boyd fabrics have cotton or polyester warp, Rotter uses polyester (according to the website). I know it is possible to order special runs from Boyd - it is probably true for Rotter as well.

I should perhaps say that I have never seen a Chinese hh fabric, that I now of - but I see on the Ch site that they use "pure cotton or fleece as warp". This is the only instance I have seen wool mentioned in combination with horsehair. If you have other refs, Reed Guy, I would be very interested!

(Also i have never heard of a Harris tweed with hh in the tweed - but that may be a language misunderstanding from my side, perhaps? I don't count so-called horsehair lining in the jackets...)

In Falcot's Traité des tissus there is a chapter on horsehair, both preparation and weaving (fp_weave_3.pdf) - he even describes how to make long warps out of knotted-together horsehair.

ReedGuy

Harris tweed is not with horse hair no, but wool, just to demonstrate wool wears well, so would be fine for warp with horse hair weft.

This site shows samples with wool warp and a mix of wool, horse hair and other wefts. Hover your mouse pointer over the pictures.

http://www.brightontextiledesign2014.com/#!lizzie-wester/c1i2y

I think the trouble is, in many instances, no literature written because of proprietory issues. Meaning I know something I don't want you to know. ;)

We had an industrialist here named Alexander "Boss" Gibson. He was a railroad man, but he also ran a cotton textile mill. There is next to no literature at all from his operations.

 

kerstinfroberg

Thank you, very interesting.

The site seems to show photos from the graduate show '14 of the textile program at Brighton Uni. Whether these "3D acoustic fabrics" would be a good choice for upholstery is, I believe, in the eye of the upholsterer...

ReedGuy

You are may be right there Kerstin, I never searched for upholstery per se, just fabric with wool warp. I was rushing it, I'll search later. Too busy with my weaving. :D

ReedGuy

I know that linen alone is not forgiving enough for making curves on furniture, but when wool is introduced the fabric behaves much different. I would assume other hair would also allow linen to shape around curves better.

I also think cost of production is traded for durability. Do you want to sell a lot or do you want to make it so your market is soon dried up or slowed a lot because no one is replacing upholstery. ;D The Chinese have learned to produce things that do not last long. People keep buying to replace. ;)

I live in a very rural and not that old a country. There is not much old furniture to look at. Most of the time when a couple marries they have new, not a multigeneration sofa or chair. And if so, not really all that old compared to Europe. Most deposited on a rock pile or back of a lot to decay away.

Various wools at this mill used in upholstery if you read the captions. But no horsehair used.

http://www.briggsandlittle.com/products/wool-knitting-yarns

Sara von Tresckow

Just running a quick search on "horsehair fabrics" brings up the followoing sites from mills producing traditional horsehair upholstery fabrics. There is quite a bit of information about composition, width, weave structure to be found on them. It is usually fine, densely woven and weft faced. The old Victorian sofas and seating often had the fabric grain running front to back on the seat - making it work a little like an ejection seat if a guest overstayed.

http://www.horsehairfabrics.com/about.htm

http://modellifabrics.com/upholstery-fabric/horsehair

http://www.remodelista.com/posts/fabrics-linens-horsehair-fabric-from-john-boyd-textiles

http://www.londonfabriccompany.com/horse-hair.asp

This mill makes horsehair fabrics for use in underlining and stiffening garments:

http://www.horse-hairfabric.com/horse_hair/horse_hair_fabrics.htm

pammersw

"Fleece" when used by the Chinese does not always mean wool fleece. It can also be polyester fleece. I read a blog post last week written by a gal who bought a "wooly fleece coat" from a Chinese site, and the coat turned out to be polyester fleece. So on the site above, they may be using cotton and polyester warp, rather than cotton and wool, with the horse hair.

ReedGuy

The Le Crin info wasn't up on their home site when I searched earlier and linked to it. But Sara's link and from what I could find indicates a satin weave.  Satin is mostly woven with linen, silk, or polyester for a gloss or sheen look, is it not? One side warp effect, the other weft effect. The sample in my book is warp faced with the horse hair forming the inner diamonds and with a red died warp. Cotton is typically in a sateen that is not as lustrous.

ReedGuy

Any time I read about commercial fleece I always think polyester. They make fleece sheets here in NB, and they are polyester. A fleece hat these days is polyester. A wool fleece that I always think of is used for stuffing and to speed up 'hand' spinning. The mill here sells it. Woolly is an adjective, not a noun and can be of wool or of some other material that simulates wool.

A non weaving example, the hemock woolly adegid infected my hemlock trees. Their bodies have a wool-like secretion on them.

ingamarie

OK well this thread certainly took an interesting turn from my original post!

I did some more sampling and the 3-1 gooseye will work nicely. 

As to hair vs. wool and flexibility  mentioned a few posts up -- wool is bouncy and crimpy and therefore very resilient. The horsehair I have is not that way at all, it's stiff and has very little crimp, mostly none actually.. It doesn't have the stretchy bouncy quality that wool has.  I suspect that it's use as an upholstery fabric comes from it's shine and durablilty, it looks like something that will wear like iron. It's a bit like linen, which I weave a lot like in it's sheen an stiffness.. but unlike linen won't wrinkle and since it's all one long fiber won't get fuzzy or pilly the way other fibers do.

The hair was taken from 3 different places on the horse, so I have 3 basins to soak it in.. I'll take a little from each one as I weave. The piece is only 8" square so I'm planning on weaving it in one sitting so I don't have to leave it in water for days.

I'll post pictures when I'm done.

 

kerstinfroberg

The weaving police was not awake in the early 1800s, when many metres of hh was woven in satin (most of them cotton warp, some w linen) with horsehair as sole weft. The weft side was used as the up side, and (as Sara said) was mounted with the weft (hh) running front-to-back (and up-and-down) on chairs and sofas here in Sweden. Quite often the satin was 5-end, sometimes 6-end. (I know this because I have seen many such pieces, and also looked at them with a loupe.) These "plain" (as opposed to patterned) fabrics were used when long-wearing and easy-care fabrics were needed - typically in (i am lacking some terminology here, so I'll guess) the "knights' dining room" where many rowdier feasts were held - "nowadays" (meaning 1930s -> ) they were often used in restaurants, probably for the same reason.

Patterned hh were used in the "nicer" salons. (Examples of both types of rooms/hh-clad furniture can be seen in several Swe castles)

If woven in a weft-faced structure, and beat hard enough, hh *is* shiny. (At least for some hundred years, and if reasonably clean. Again, examples in Swe castles and museums)

 

ReedGuy

As to which side is used, I think it can go either way in modern times at least. I have an example here in a book written by a master upholsterer (Malcolm Hopkins) that shows upholstery fabric with horse weft where the warp is obviously dominant, and it isn't cotton. Horse hair is also used for stuffing (curled horse hair), which I am using to, with cotton baten as well in another layer.

ingamarie

I just saw this video, it's more atmospheric than informative but worth the 4 minutes to watch.  

ingamarie

deleting unexplained duplicate...