I recently added a sectional beam to my baby Mac, and I'm loving it, but I keep having the same issue: the selvedge threads on both sides slip off to the side as I weave, loosening the tension, which leaves the threads too short as soon as I advance the warp. When I wind the beam, it's nice and tidy, just like in the pics in my weaving books (I don't have an instructor available), but as I weave, it degenerates into a hot mess. Anybody else have (and hopefully solve) this issue? I'm working with 16/2 and 20/2 linens, mostly, which have very little elasticity, so uneven tension is pretty unforgiving.

Comments

Tue, 12/02/2014 - 04:59

laurafry

I would assume that you are not beaming with sufficient tension.  :(

Laura

Tue, 12/02/2014 - 19:58

brightfeather

I've got the tension box set as high as the linen will take without snapping.  If you feel it on the beam, it's hard as a rock.  And it's only once I start weaving that this develops.  I'm at a loss.

Tue, 12/02/2014 - 20:42

kerstinfroberg

If not tension - can it be that your sections (fron the tension box) are a tad too narrow? When I started using a sectional, i wanted a very high tension. Found that I had problems in adjusting the width of the section, so I adjusted for that by making them slightly narrower. With high tension, that was a disaster...

(After studying my sectional closely, it turned out the dividers are not *quite* at the same distances - close, but not exactly. Loosening the tension some helped a bit, but I sure would have preferred the dividers to be more accurately placed.)

Tue, 12/02/2014 - 21:00

ReedGuy

Your getting layers cutting down through from above. This is why folks place a piece of card stock or even some loom makers make things to place on the sections every so many revolutions. You can not always fill each section fully unless you plan wisely. A sett of 24 epi in the tension box comb with 20/2 cotton is not going to crowd that 1" space, it would have to be double. It will be very open between threads otherwise.

Tue, 12/02/2014 - 21:25

laurafry

Hmm - the look of the beam doesn't say high tension to me.  If the yarns are filling the section, as Kerstin says, and wound on tightly there should be no cutting down from upper layers to lower.  Without actually seeing and inspecting your beam, I'm afraid I'm at a loss.  Sorry.  :(

Reed Guy, I have sectionally beamed 100 yard long warps without any packing whatsoever, so dividers are not always necessary if the sections are wound on tightly enough.  In my experience it is only when the sections are loose that upper layers can cut down into lower...here is a picture of one of my sectionally beamed warps - about 30 yards if I remember correctly.  2/16 cotton at 32 epi.

 

Laura

Tue, 12/02/2014 - 21:48

ReedGuy

The Op indicated that the warp was wound firmly.

Yes, you can because you used the full space, if you used half those threads than it would be trouble because threads would spread. The longest warp I did was 32 yards, but I packed to be sure it would not cut layers with card stock. It was linen, so I wasn't going to take chances. This is an issue with many weaving on sectionals. If not, than why do makers sell packing material. As Kerstin found out, the threads need to fill the space.

Wed, 12/03/2014 - 01:12

sandra.eberhar…

When I wind a sectional warp, I calculate how many ends I need to fill the section and warp that.  It has no relation to the EPI in the reed.  I only add a plastic filler piece to cover the knot to tie on the bundle to the beam.

Wed, 12/03/2014 - 08:53

ReedGuy

Yes, but lets make a distinction between a tension box comb and a reed in a beater. When I wind onto a sectional, the reed sett doesn't enter the picture other than planning warp ends needed for the width of woven cloth. The reed could be 24 epi for the cloth, but might need 48 epi in the comb of the tension box to fill those sections. My sections are an inch, not 1/8" or 1/4" less taken up by dividers. My current project is 15" wide of cloth, but I only fill 13 sections. Take a tape across those 13, and it spans 15". If I was doing a much wider piece, say 30" of cloth, I do not want warp spread across 45" on the back roller and beam.

Wed, 12/03/2014 - 16:46

brightfeather

hmmm.  Now I'm wondering if the issue is the tension box.  When I wind these, I use 16/2 linen at 24 epi.  In the reed, it's 2 ends per dent in a #12 reed, but in my tension box, I do something a little different to avoid tangles and jams.  Each end goes into a separate dent on the first (entry) comb of the box, and narrows so that it exists the box with 2 threads in each dent.  When I wound with a #12 comb in the box, I kept getting threads built up on the sides of each section (with a dip in the middle), so I started using a #15 comb in the box so that the threads fit better between the posts of my beam.  Now the beamed threads are nice and flat and even, but I'm wondering if it's a little too narrow?  On the interior sections, nothing can escape out the sides of the section b/c the ones on either side form a wall, but the end sections don't have that.  And yes, threads are cutting down, but that develops after I start weaving and the tension goes to pot, and only is an issue on the 2 end sections.  When it is first wound, it looks perfect.  I'll try card stock on the next beam.

Wed, 12/03/2014 - 17:01

brightfeather

Here's a question:  How do I know how tight this "should" be?  I don't have anybody who I can go see in person who uses a sectional beam.  When I push down on the beamed warp between the pegs (where there is wood under the warp to provide a base), it gives ever so slightly.  Compared to my first sectional warp, this is pretty darn firm, but I can get a firmer surface with stretchy warps like wool, since they stretch under the tension of beaming, and are constantly trying to contract back down, keeping the warp tight as a drum.  I've only done 1 wool warp on this beam so far, and I don't recall having as many issues, but it was also a lot shorter.  Is there a way to beam a non-stretchy warp tighter without snapping threads when you hit a snag?  Or is what I'm getting normal for linen?  Laura, it there any way for you to put up a shot of your beamed warp from the side (showing the cross section of the last section) as a reference for what I should be shooting for?  Your beam photo does look tighter than mine:  I don't have gaps between the sections except where the pegs hold it apart, but you do. Is that typical for your warps, regardless of fiber and set, or unique to this one?beamed warp

Wed, 12/03/2014 - 18:07

laurafry

When I look at your picture I see a warp that is not as tightly beamed as I would do.  I see a warp that looks 'puffy', not taut.  I see threads that do not look stretched but still have slack in them.  I see threads that look like they are 'loose'.  In other words, I see a beam that is going to develop tension problems, especially when I see how the outside threads have collapsed.

Since your sections are actually narrower than one inch, it is important to have the final 'reed' in the tension box filled to the same width as what the section actually is.  I will try to find a photo that shows the warp from the side.  The one I posted wasn't the best but I was rushed.  I also didn't give a very helpful answer and for that I apologize.

Since you say the tension goes to pot when you apply tension to weave, that is just one more signal that the warp is too loosely beamed ***for that yarn***.

Linen is a very dense yarn, so will feel dense, even when it is 'too loose'.  The fact you can make a dimple in the warp when you press on it again says to me 'too loose'.

What I would do - you may not be able to - is cut the outside sections away but leave the threads taped to their sections and use them as a flange to prevent the next section from collapsing.  As you noticed they do provide a wall to prevent the interior sections from shifting as much as the outside edges.

I will try to find a better picture of my warps.  The warp currently on the loom only has about 5 yards left on it so won't be very helpful.  I may have something in my photo file.

In the meantime you might go to my blog http://laurasloom.blogspot.com and click on the 'sectional beaming' label for hints and tips that I have posted over the years.

Laura

Wed, 12/03/2014 - 21:08

kerstinfroberg

Knowing this has been discussed before (I may have asked before too), but I get confused - .

Here in Sweden we are taught that the wrap should be beamed to the same width as the reed-width, or perhaps a *little* wider. (Sectional beams are not common here) So when I got a sectional beam, I tried to do it the same way. (Granted, I haven't had my sectional for more than some 13 years, so i may not have understood all the finer points)

While I can understand the idea of beaming (for instance) every other section at double the epi (my sectional has 1" sections), I simply cannot understand the idea of "It has no relation to the EPI in the reed". What am I missing? Are you saying that you (as an example) beam a 30 epi (in the reed) with (say) 90 ends/section without leaving (in this example) 2 empty sections between each filled (thus having the warp expanding to three time the width in the reed)? Or that you beam each section with 15 ends, then sleying the warp into half the width?

Wed, 12/03/2014 - 21:49

brightfeather

My instructions also have told me to set up my beam to the same EPI as my reed.  I can definately see where packing it in closer would be helpful - how do you determine the EPI on the beam, if you aren't matching it to the reed?  I can see where this would be a huge help on more open sets (I assumed that I couldn't do these with the sectional beam, but this would allow me to do so??)

Wed, 12/03/2014 - 22:30

laurafry


For me, I mostly use the same number of ends per section as I want per inch.  OTOH, I *have* varied it if my designing is a bit complicated.  Perhaps a stripe sequence that doesn't fit into a one inch section.  I might then do more in a section in order to accomodate the complete stripe and leave empty sections to make up for the fact that I am putting more threads per section than ends per inch.

When I did very long warps (100 turns on my beam = 105 yards - approx.) I would only fill 54 sections to save myself some winding.  I left empty sections on either end and in the middle.  

But I only did this with yarn that would co-operate - linen, for example, probably would not be happy with this because it has pretty much zero elasticity.

If, on the other hand, the sections are not 1" minus the dividers, but actually 1", I can see that you would have to fiddle some to get the correct number of ends for the warp desired.

So I think it must be one of those 'it depends' answers...

Let me see if I can find a better picture of my warp(s)...this one still isn't showing the side very well, but I think it shows that the threads are not loose, the fact that there is a gap between sections shows that the threads are very tight and not bowing out into the space between...this warp is 2/16 cotton at 32 epi (and 32 in each section), 30 yards long.  It is the warp currently on the loom, about 5 yards left to weave.

Wed, 12/03/2014 - 22:33

ReedGuy

The only thing the reed sett pertains to on my loom is the cloth width and pattern. One inch of reed width, only equals the space between the dividers, the dividers use physical space. On the sectional I gain 1/8" in width across the beam from section to section. If I fill 50 sections I gain 6.25" on the beam, which is 6.25" wider than at the reed if you use the same sett in the comb as the reed. On a 62" beam I do not have 62 sections. The dividers use space they are not free space. My sections are 1" wide not 7/8" or 13/16". It is just simple math. ;)

Wed, 12/03/2014 - 22:35

ReedGuy

Laura, you have  the idea, you posted while I was typing. :)

Wed, 12/03/2014 - 22:40

MMs-and-OOs-Ha…

The last sectional warp I did was 26 epi in the reed but beamed 24epi X 2 for each 2 inch section. On the warp beam the warp was wider by a 2" section on each side of the warp compared to the total weaving width. The warp on the beam was 36" wide and about 33" in the reed. I was using a warping board to make my sections and the 24 epi to give me 6 ends in each raddle cross for a 4 dent raddle. I used the raddle to position each section and then I pulled the section on. My loom weaves perfectly fine, actually better, whether the warp is put on with a plain beam and flanges or sectionally. I get better selvedges. Unless I need the whole width of my loom I rarely beam at the exact width of the reed.
Thu, 12/04/2014 - 00:36

ReedGuy

My current sett in the reed is 48 and in the sections 30. 13 sections gives me 15 inches in beam width and at 48 epi in the reed the project is 15 inches. I'm using 20/2 cotton in bound doubleweave cloth, warp and weft, with same warp for pile. I have never messed up a warp once I get the stuff beamed. I have messed up a bout so bad in that fine stuff that it was just easier to toss in the trash. I use flanges on my supplemetal for the pile and padding warps where they don't need high tension. But sometimes a higher tension for something like pique with a larger yarn like my recent bath mat I'm proud to be using. Feels nice on the feet. :D