Hello,

I have a Newcomb Studio Loom that I've been weaving rugs on. I recently put on a new warp sing 8-4 Poly-cotton rug warp, 12epi. I used a tension box and warped each 2" section with 24 threads. The 24 spools were set up on a spool rack. I'm finding that as I've been weaving I get usually two warp threads that start to loosen usually by the second rug on the loom. Once these threads were located in a section in the center of the loom but usually this happens on the 1st 2" section and with the two outermost threads. After it loosens up I put weights on those two threads to keep tension at an acceptable level. At some point the weights stop being enough and I cut those threads one at a time and re-tie them so the knots fall just past where the header ends. Then I finish the rug and cut the rugs off and start over. Sometimes I only get one rug before I have to cut it off and re-tie all the warp ends. When I wound the warp on I just wound it on without putting any paper between. I thought that would be OK. I'm curious though. If it was the tension box why do most sections work OK? If it's something basic I'm missing please let me know.  I'm green but I'm hoping to  learn from these mistakes. I just haven't been able to trouble-shoot this one.

Thanks for any help,

John

Comments

Tue, 10/14/2014 - 08:23

Andrew Kieran (not verified)

You shouldn't have to put paper between layers when sectional warping.

The reason for paper, and for sectional warping, is that when warping on long warps the selvedge threads tend to slip off the wound warp and onto the beam causing uneven warp take up.

I was about to say maybe one section is slightly over an inch wide, but that doesn't make sense to me now as if the above paragraph was relevant to your problem the ends would be tightening up as you wove, not loosening.

It sounds like there's quite a big difference in the end length if you can't weave one rug without having to retie them. I sometimes get a slight slackness at the outermost ends on my sectionally beamed warps, but I can weave for tens of metres just putting some weights on them and never have to retie.

One thing that's perhaps possible is that the tension created between the spool rack and the tension box is uneven in some way. Perhaps the loose threads are ones that travel in a perfectly straight line from spool to box and the others are coming in at a slight angle?

It wouldn't hurt to measure precisely the size of each section on the beam to make sure it's not that, but it sounds more like a tension issue if it's not happening consistently, as you said it happened in one place and now in another.

 

Tue, 10/14/2014 - 17:06

laurafry

I was thinking the same thing - that the loose ends are not being beamed at the same tension as the rest, especially if it seems like it's always the same ends going loose.

Industrial creels have tensioning devices - each individual thread is tensioned.  Handweavers usually don't have this level of sophistication on their equipment.  I find it works best if the yarn packages are about the same weight and where ever possible I pull off the side of the tube (I warp directly from 1/2 pound tubes, usually).  If the tension box isn't supplying sufficient tension to the threads (as a whole) I have additional dowels I can use to create more tension e.g. if I need to take off the top of a yarn package.  But if individual ends *within* the section are consistently looser I would assume they are not winding on at the same tension as the rest and that needs to be addressed...

For more information I've blogged about my AVL set up.  Not sure if any of that would be helpful to you but my blog URL is

http://laurasloom.blogspot.com 

Search for Sectional beaming or click on the link to the right hand side (scroll down...way down...I seem to have rather a lot of blog posts!)  ;)

cheers,

Laura

Tue, 10/14/2014 - 20:56

Kate in Scotland

Hi John,

It sounds as if one or two threads in some sections migrated to a neighboring (full) section while you were winding. These were therefore wound at a larger diameter. I would suggest that you ditch the paper between layers (as Andrew also suggested) and remain extra-vigilant next time you wind to keep those threads evenly spaced but within their walls.

Kate

Tue, 10/14/2014 - 21:34

johnos

 

Thank-you Andrew, Laura and Kate ! 

I appreciate your help. Next warp I'll be extra careful about the tension. One other thing I noticed is that the warp threads are laying flat but at the intersection of the warp and the pegs on the beam that separate the sections, the warp tends to get pinched in and down slightly and wonder if this too may be part of the problem ?

Tue, 10/14/2014 - 22:57

laurafry

Pinched in and down?  I'm thinking you don't have the threads spread fully enough.  Measure the space between the pegs, and then spread the warp in your tension box to match that.  The section should be as flat as possible.

cheers,

Laura

Wed, 10/15/2014 - 08:09

Andrew Kieran (not verified)

i'd even tend to add a few more ends. make the section warped a fraction wider than the section width on the beam.

Pinching at the sides would indicate that the warp isn't wide enough and the edge threads are falling off the side. This shouldn't happen.

I would also observe that I've found wide-spaced rug warps take a lot of attention to beam successfully, by whatever method. Maybe increase the warp density on the beam, but keep it the same on the reed.

Any thoughts Laura?

Wed, 10/15/2014 - 15:32

laurafry

I try not to have any build up at the edges or those ends get longer. :( Ideally the bout should lay flat as possible. I haven't done any beaming for widely spaced warps but speculate that increasing the density I.e. Winding two inches in the space of one, or four inches in the space of two, then spreading the threads to the epi desired might be a good idea for cotton. Not sure linen warp would behave well due to the lack of elasticity. But worth trying for a short warp? Cheers Laura
Wed, 10/15/2014 - 19:27

jander14indoor (not verified)

I recognize several of the posters have FAR more experience than me, but I've noticed that Leclerc sells two specific products that might help.  http://www.leclerclooms.com/cat2014a.htm select "Sectional warping",  

About half way down the page you'll find "Guides" and "Dividers".  

The "Guides" should help make sure all the threads in a section go into that section.  

The "Dividers" are sectional warp packing.  Looking at them paper would not be a suitable substitute as the Dividers extend beyond the gap making sure threads can't slip down the outside of the thread package.

You should be able to adapt these to many looms or make your own easily enough.

Again, no personal experience, so I'll defer to others if these would actually help.

Jeff Anderson

Livonia, MI

Wed, 10/15/2014 - 20:14

laurafry

The guides only fit on the Leclerc dividers, not on pegs. The dividers may work for thicker yarns widely spaced but didn't much help with finer threads, which I found simply sank into the tiny space left between the divider and the staple. For pegs, guides can be made from tubing but the bout should still be as close as possible to the size of the section to prevent build up at the edges. If you have good alignment and sufficient tension, nothing is required as warp packing. Yesterday's blog post showed the last couple of layers of a 30 yard warp. The bout is evenly distributed in the space thanks to the swivelling reed in the AVL tension box. Previous posts about sectional beaming will have different views of the process. Cheers Laura
Thu, 10/16/2014 - 23:26

laurafry

I just finished beaming a warp and took a couple of photos...

sectional beaming 1

Here is the 'ribbon' of yarn going into a section (above) and (below) how the beam looks after done.  The warp is about 36 yards long.

sectional beaming 2

Fri, 10/17/2014 - 08:13

ReedGuy

I did a narrow linen warp on a sectional and packed with card stock (many use business cards on 2" sectionals) and I had 32 yards beamed. I wove all than into chair webbing with no issues. The belt of webbing was nice and firm (firmly beat) and not airy, which is what you want for webbing on a chair. I have 1" sections. I pack the width of each section fully, so the sett there has nothing to do with the reed in the loom. If you do a wide piece you will find that the dividers will cause you to loose weaving width if you try to match reed sett with section or the heddles can stress the yarn if the warp is too spread. Tis true for sections that do not include the staples as the width. On mine, I have a full inch between, not 1/8" short of that. Takes only 8 sections to loose an inch of weave due to the space taken by the U sections/staples. If your sections are short of a full inch or two you can get build up at the edges if you try to fit too many ends.

 

Too many or not enough, it can go either way. Takes good planning. I have woven several table cloths, and tension was never an issue.

Sun, 10/19/2014 - 02:57

MMs-and-OOs-Ha…

One thing to consider is how you start out on whatever sectional beam you have. Make sure any leader knots do not start on the top of the flat section base. They should fall below even if you have to shorten the leader slightly by taking an overhand knot. Your ability to get a nice flat sections starts right at the beginning winds. Spread the warp section as wide as you can to begin. Make a good start. If you use a section box with a pivoting raddle section, start parallel to the beam, wind a few turns, pivot the reed, wind more, back to center, pivot to the opposite side. If you are using a raddle you may have to move the section warp over a raddle tooth and then back. But .... the idea is that a "good start" is a good finish. The more warp you wind on unevenly the worse it gets as you build. Flat, flat, flat, with lots of tension. In the end you'll end up with an even weaving warp that allows you to reduce the warp tension, better for the cloth and your body.