I was able to get a large bag of 40/2 bleached linen yarn for next to nothing.  It consists of more than 20 warp chains 10 1/2 yards long, each containing 58 threads.  Both ends have been cut.  There is NO CROSS.  It is absolutely lovely yarn, and I would really love to weave with it.  Is there any option short of picking these chains apart one thread at a time and re-winding them with a cross?

Thanks for any ideas!

Karen

Comments

Tue, 09/16/2014 - 23:38

mneligh

The weaver's cross keeps threads in the order in which they were wound for ease of warping.  Some warping methods, especially sectional warping methods, do not use one.  A FEW crossed threads (not tangled or twisted) between the heddles and the warp beam won't hurt you provided they feed smoothly.  The trick is how to minimize the crossed threads and prevent tangles.

First, it's easier to do if you warp back to front, because if you warp front to back you must not have any twists or tangles from the heddles to the beater to the cloth.  This does not make it impossible - just more difficult.

What you really need to do is comb your warp.  This can be done one section at a time with a tension box with 2 reeds or similar mechanism, or all at once by using a reed as your comb.  If the latter, and warping B2F, you have to attach the reed to the loom somehow and then sley the warp through it.  I've found it easier to comb a tangled warp if I have plenty of space for the warp to stretch out, preferably the full length.

Crank the warp on slowly.  I don't think the amount of tension matters as long as it's consistent.  In other words, if a tangle is approaching, untangle and make sure it doesn't hit the reed (or whatever), since that will cause uneven winding.  Shaking the warp as you go will help.

Good luck!

Wed, 09/17/2014 - 08:25

ReedGuy

I use a cross in sectional warping by means of a string that I undulate through each completed section. Once done I place a set of lease sticks in. Quite a few weavers use a cross with a sectional. It is helpful to me when threading heddles and also identifing where an end broke.

Wed, 09/17/2014 - 12:54

mneligh

A cross is useful but not vital when sectional warping.

Since my weaving came from the ranks of primitive loom people (backstrap & vertical rug looms) I recognize how important the cross or actually the figure 8 in the warp can be in those traditions, but I wonder if it is equally so in other areas, like where the weighted warp looms once dominated, for example . . .

Wed, 09/17/2014 - 14:26

Sara von Tresckow

The cross on the warp weighted loom determines the natural shed and the pull shed. The cross is probably the most important attribute in a warp after getting the right number of threads.

In this case, since the chains have only 58 threads each, it shouldn't be terribly difficult to "invent" a cross that works for this one warp.

Keeping the cross for the entire length of the weaving is important for many reasons. Minor tension issues can be safely kept behind the lease sticks, the position of a broken thread determined easily, threads moved from their position on the beam to where they are needed - as long as the thread runs true from the lease sticks to the heddles, it can be at a rakish angle behind them. I also find that the lease sticks give a hard edge for the shed to pivot against - when, at the end of the warp, I remove them, the opening is "mushy" and not as clean as before. 

Wed, 09/17/2014 - 15:58

Michael White

One cross, two crosses, no crosses. Front to back, back to front. The bottom line is if you can get a piece of cloth off your loom you have done your job.

Michael

Wed, 09/17/2014 - 15:59

mneligh

Sara, can you give or point me to more information on weighted warp looms and how they were dressed?  Also, while on the subject, Gobelin-style tapestry looms and any archeological information you may have on primitive warping methods in Europe (or elsewhere, for that matter).

Some sectional methods don't use a cross, like when warping off a spool rack.  The passing of the warp through reed or equivalent assures the weaver that there will be no crossed threads.  Tape is frequently used to preserve the order of the threads. I have also seen people wind each color separately, merging them through the reed at beaming time.  This latter precludes the use of a cross. (It might be faster, but in my heart I have never trusted this method, perhaps irrationally.)

In the case of primitive looms, the cross functions as described, separating the warp into two sheds.  Separated like this, it is very easy to add string heddles if desired.  Were there/are there warping and weaving methods other than the cases I mentioned in the preceding paragraph that never use a cross?  Are they used on looms other than modern floor looms -- in other words, are there traditions in which the use of the cross never existed, or was it merely abandoned by some modern weavers?

Please note that I am not advocating abandoning the cross or trying to start a flame war.  I'm very curious about weaving history worldwide, and the presence of the cross might be an important trait of cultural diffusion or parallel evolution.

Wed, 09/17/2014 - 20:37

Karen6

Thanks to each one of you for your help.  This project now looks possible.

I have a tension box and a loom with two-inch sections.  I can use the tension box to wind on each section one chain at a time.  Plan A:  I will carefully separate the ends by hand to thread the tension box.  I hope that separating the threads through the first comb will make them into a smooth ribbon through the tension box.  

But if they look twisted, I will be able to see it and go to Plan B:  thread them through the tension box with a cross.  I can tie the cross for each section as it is wound on, and transfer all the crosses to my lease sticks when the warp is completely wound on.

You have no idea how grateful I am that I do not need to pick these chains completely apart and re-wind them!  Many, many thanks!

Karen

Wed, 09/17/2014 - 20:51

ReedGuy

Actually as I use spools and a tension box, I place a cross string in each section after it is wound. I usually do groups of 8 in fine threads, but that is not set in stone. I have seen photos of Joanne Hall doing it to, that is where I learned it. I do not tie the warp to strings either, I use a tie-on rod that is secured to the roller and tie each section in groups like tying onto the front of the loom. Untraditional, but has never failed. Once woven to the end,the rod is released from the roller and held by texsolv cord to weave the last 2 yards. The cords are spread onto the rod the width of the warp so tension of warp is counter balanced with tension on cords.

Leclerc also suggests the string at the cross if one desires.

Wed, 09/17/2014 - 21:19

mneligh

No one is suggesting you abandon a warping method that works for you. 

A crossless method using a spool rack and tension box is documented in Robin and Russ' Sectional Warping Made Easy.  It's clear, straightforward, and it works. 

Because an AVL warping wheel saves the tension box step in that one can wind the warp directly off the wheel under whatever tension is desired, I've become a convert to that for most warps.  I actually did buy a LeClerc tension box in order to see if using a cross had any advantages for me over my Macomber tension box (which does not accommodate preserving the cross), and found that on warps of under 15 yards, at least, it did not, providing the taping is accurate.

The original question, though, was how to use the warp she had, without a cross.  People of the Robin and Russ school routinely warp without the cross with no problems.  The origin and distribution of the weavers' cross is an academic question about which I am curious, and upon which people such as Sara may well have more insight than I, at least for some cultural areas.

Wed, 09/17/2014 - 22:11

ReedGuy

It wasn't taken as such, it was a response to an assertion being make that really is not true. In that sectional warping does not use a cross. It simply is 'optional' for those that warp in different 'styles'. Often there are methods that many consider shortcuts, while others simply learned to do it that way from the get go. Simple as that. :)

Wed, 09/17/2014 - 23:21

Sara von Tresckow

I don't have time to do research, but I am unaware of any traditional warping methods that do not use a cross in some form - it is a modern thing to disregard it or ignore it. The warp weighted looms were done by winding a warp chain including a primitive cross using a woven band to separate the threads. This band was then nailed to the warp beam.

I see the modern waping methods sometimes as being "what we can get away with" or "skip" to save time rather than being founded on some proven way to get better quality fabric.

Any weaver is free to dress the loom in any way desired - however, using a method that includes a cross that is kept until the end of the weaving is like an insurance policy - mostly you don't get in trouble, but if you do, it is there for you.

 

 

 

Thu, 09/18/2014 - 00:00

laurafry

I don't use a cross when beaming sectionally but do when winding a warp chain.  I have 1" sections on my sectional beam and I find the tape does a 'good enough' job of keeping the threads in alignment for threading.  Learning the limits of *any* process, system and equipment will allow the choice of the appropriate means to get what you need to get.  I tend toward processes that I find most efficient.  Not having a cross in a wound chain just means extra time, effort and hair pulling.  That doesn't mean it can't be done - just that it eats up way more of my time than I'm willing to expend.  I learned a long time ago that I can always buy more yarn but once I've 'spent' my time I can never get it get more to replace it.

cheers,

Laura

Thu, 09/18/2014 - 00:50

Dawn McCarthy

I still put a cross in my sectional warps (I use a piece of rigid heddle instead of the combs) even though this may use multiple ends in a cross.  It is a habit that takes extra seconds and I find especially useful for fine threads.  It's a little like "Mum tells you to wear clean underwear and brush your teeth as you never know"  I won't condone another weaver for not doing it but I can sure tell you a bunch of reasons I do!

Good luck with the linen, the tension box is a great solution.  Enjoy and share your results and fabric.

Dawn

Fri, 09/19/2014 - 14:18

sally orgren

...but feel qualified to comment as I "inherited" two different warps with no crosses in the last few years. 

First, an experienced weaver can probably deal with "no cross" better than a newbie, because they already have many good practices in place and know what to look for if trouble arises. So I agree, some of us probably can get away with no cross. But if I was a newbie, I would not hesitate to add a cross for insurance and "peace of mind" during the rest of the beaming process. And even tho' I have been weaving for nearly 20 years, I still introduced a cross on these two warps before dressing the loom back to front. 

Second, I never comb a warp. Ever. It might be okay on a short warp, but it introduces more tangles the further along you go on a longer warp. Instead, I hang water weights off the warp to provide steady tension, and when I encounter a tangle, I snap, shake, pull the warp sharply to eliminate them. (It sounds odd if you haven't tried it, but it works, almost like magic!) 

Recreating the cross is not that hard to do. Just get a good audio book or listen to a podcast and you'll be done in no time!

Fri, 09/19/2014 - 18:16

mneligh

I also use a cross on non-sectional warps, and all warps for backstrap and Navajo looms.

My non-cross case is for sectional warps only.  For those, I've found that the tape is good enough also.  Essentially, the tension box or reed that combs the warp is sufficient to eliminate tangles and crossed threads.

 

Sun, 09/21/2014 - 01:46

Karen6

Thanks again to each of you for sharing your time to help me with this project.  

Spent the last couple of days buried in pattern books, old Handwoven magazines, and samples from my guild.  Settled on huck towels.  With 10 yards, I can try out several treadlings, change tie-ups, and even re-thread if I feel like it.  The project is underway, in large part thanks to you all.  Thanks again!

Karen