Hello everyone, I have been revisiting this conundrum time and time again over the last couple of years and have always admitted defeat. I want to increase my counterbalanced loom from 4 to 8 shafts and this is a completely off the wall notion that came to me today. My loom is 5 feet deep with the 4 shafts and their lamms sliding up and down guide grooves and I have 4 more shafts given to me some years ago. I don't want to convert this lovely old loom to countermarch so what if I mount these spare shafts behind the counterbalance mechanism, in a separate parallel countermarch sort of way, with the only connection to the original shafts being their tie up to the treadles. I shall have to add 4 more treadles too, won't I? I am hoping that you will be able to tell me if this could possibly work or is just a completely bonkers ideas! Thank you, Kath in Worcestershire, England

Comments

Tue, 06/17/2014 - 21:31

kerstinfroberg

(or, shuld I say "several-level" pulleys) - we have used such animals in Sweden for the longest time. On my blog I have some examples - let me know if I can help better.

Wed, 06/18/2014 - 00:16

sandra.eberhar…

I have a Barbara IV which can be (and is currently) tied up as an 8 shaft counterbalance.  The only thing is, it's only good for tie ups that balance on both sets of shafts.  These aren't common, and most of the 8 shaft  patterns that I like (like twill blocks) are not balanced.  For that reason, when I wanted to convert my 4 shaft counterbalance barn frame loom to 8 shaft, I went countermarche.  That loom has enough height to the breast beam to accept the extra set of lamms.  I made the lams float, which attaches the upper lams to the shafts, and that gives you more room for the lower lamms.  I have a 4 shaft Leclerc Kebec that I would like to add more shafts to, and is not high enough to go countermarche.  I could add height to the legs, but I think I will do what Kerstin said and add layers of pulleys and horses.

Wed, 06/18/2014 - 10:18

Katy Carr

I appreciate your comments Kerstin and Big White Sofa Dog, thank you both. I understand your suggested solutions as positive answers to the job of adding these shafts and am grateful for your help. Using a pulley system, which I have looked at on the Glimakra website, or a complete system change to countermarch mean altering the original construction and appearance of my loom. On the one hand it means adding an extra assembly on top of the loom holding a top level pulley and adding side assemblies with extra grooves for the shafts and lamms to ride in, and on the other hand the complete removal of all original rollers and chains to change the system to countermarch. I am still wondering if my idea would work? Adding these shafts behind the original counterbalanced ones, operating them in a parallel countermarch way. I understand that each shaft mounted in this fashion would work independently and I am hoping that I could tie up as many extra shafts to the original set as required for weaving my chosen pattern with the unused ones out of action. I found an article on the Internet about simple draw loom weaving on 4 shafts by Nellie Sargent Johnson in which ends are picked up using dowel shed sticks which form another harness (Upphamta). Wouldn't parallel countermarch shafts be a more complicated version of this? Please excuse my persistence with this idea, I am determined to preserve the appearance of the loom, given its history. It came from an old country mansion converted to a WW2 rehab centre for returning British and Free French wounded and still bears the marks of use by them. Unfortunately I was give the extra shafts after it's renovation - how much easier it would have been to add them then in either of your suggested methods and before I researched the looms history! Kath
Wed, 06/18/2014 - 22:01

Yvonne K

Hi Katy,

What you are proposing would not work any better than having the double 4 set up that Kirsten recommended. If the first four shafts are counterbalanced, they will always work together. The next four shafts as countermarche can be independent of each other, but most 8 shaft drafts use a tie-up sequence that progresses smoothly through all the 8 shafts. Read the previous posts carefully as they contain all this information.

Putting in a parallel countermarche system would require a framework with pulleys and a cable system that holds shafts and upper and lower lamms. I suspect that a conversion to traditionl 8 shaft countermarche would have less effect on the appearance of your much loved loom.

The reference to opphampta is not relevant here because that system uses long-eyed heddles on the front shafts to allow the action of both shafts to operate simultaneously.

Meanwhile, I think many of us share your need to find ways to improve on what you have. Good Luck,

Yvonne

Thu, 06/19/2014 - 00:23

sandra.eberhar…

The first thing I do when making changes to an older loom is to select a piece of wood that seems representative of the overall color and have my local paint store make me a quart of a custom sealing stain that matches.  Then any new parts I add will not look like new stuff.  This works very well.  Looms are working tools, and should do what you want.  I suspect that if you mix counterbalance and countermarche shafts, you may have trouble getting a clear shed.  If you add the hardware to make the new shafts in a parallel countermarche fashion, you might as well make all of them countermarche.  As long as you have room for the extra lamms, the parallel countermarche is an excellent system.  No jack jams, it is smooth and easily treadled.  If you want pics of my 1750 barn frame loom that is an 8 shaft parallel countermarche, let me know.  I often wonder what the owners of this loom made on it through the years.  It was originally a two shaft counterbalance loom.

Thu, 06/19/2014 - 00:31

sandra.eberhar…

Thinking more about this combination of systems, I think that the tie up for this loom may take a lot fiddling to get the shed the same size for the two, and this will have to be repeated every time you tie it up.  Your loom was designed to work well for it's first intended purpose, and I understand your respect for it's history.  If the excellent carpenter who made my barn frame loom knew how to make it an 8 shaft parallel countermarche, he would have done it!

Thu, 06/19/2014 - 06:49

kerstinfroberg

I stumbled on this last week. Scroll down a bit for a couple of scary cb pictures - apparently this loom has 24 shafts...

Sat, 06/21/2014 - 22:12

Katy Carr

Thank you Yvonne, Kerstin and Big White for your thoughts on changing the operating system of my loom. I am now coming round to your way of thinking that tying up two systems and getting a good even shed would be a nightmare. I'm sure that the ghosts of previous weavers would forgive me my plans for renovation as they too must have had to adapt the loom to their physical capabilities. I can see your point Yvonne that a traditional countermarch would be more sympathetic to the look of my loom and I would certainly prefer CM to a CB pulley arrangement for 8 shafts as I am concerned about unbalanced sheds. But horizontal or vertical jacks? I like the look of the Ulla Cyrus Oxaback loom's neat vertical arrangement rather than the see saw effect of horizontal ones. On my loom there is a gap of about 20 inches between the bottom of the shafts and the top of the treadles, would this be enough room for the two sets of lamms? I am still keen on parallel countermarch? I have seen photos of your 1750 loom Big White Sofa Dog, what a massive machine, it is useful to see the tie up so clearly, shafts to lamms to treadles. It gives me such encouragement to go ahead with converting my loom. Is the upper lamm necessary? The heddles on my loom are fitted along metal rods supported between upper and lower wooden bars with metal sides and they slide up and down wooden channels on the inside upright of the castle. Can I use the shaft's lower wooden bar as the upper lamm? Is the shed better on parallel CM than on vertical jacks CM? The quietness of operation sounds very tempting after the clanking chains on my loom. Kerstin, I think I saw that magnificently whacky system on an Istanbul travel blog! I come from a family of engineers and my dad would throw a wobbly if I tied my loom up like that. Is it safe do you think? I'm going to Istanbul in October, i would love to visit a weavers workshop, fascinating.
Sun, 06/22/2014 - 00:52

sandra.eberhar…

If you attach the treadles directly to the shafts, and say you have shaft #1 attached only to treadle 1 (of 10 treadles).  This will pull the shaft down by one side instead of pulling on both sides the way the upper lamm will.  Unless you have a lot of room between the bar and the wooden frame of the shaft, it will be a lot harder to tie up.

Sun, 06/22/2014 - 22:38

Yvonne K

Hi Kate, 

It's time to do some scale drawing to see what you can do with each of the systems. 20 inches is probably just adequate for traditional cm. Vertical jacks need more space above the shafts. Parallel cm systems impact on the internal width. 

If you have someone who can make CAD drawings then you could get some very accurate and useful working drawings to help you make a final decision. My preference would also be parallel countermarch but you will need to do some research. There were some good discussions on this site a year or so ago.

 

Mon, 06/23/2014 - 10:54

Katy Carr

OK Big White, I get your point about lamms lurching out of kilter and there is only 6½ inches between the bottom rail of the shaft and the lamm. And Yvonne, width may not be an issue for me. The weaving width is 43½" and, being a bit of a short-house, I struggle to reach and throw the shuttle on wide warps especially when the beater is hanging in its furthest notch. As you suggest, engineering drawings are the way to go and would be a very good exercise for me to help make a decision on which system would be best. I have a long warp on the loom at the moment for a set of 8 different overshot place mats so I shall be mulling over all your helpful advice and suggestions while I weave. I love weaving overshot patterns but I feel that I want to 'move up' to 8 shafts and weave some heftier household textiles, rep weaves, double weave, the lovely patterns of Malin Selanders and Margo Selby, and eventually get to the level where I might experiment with pattern myself. So thank you all.