Hello all!  I've just finished warping my fairly new baby wolf for 8-shaft summer and winter towels.  These towels http://www.cottonclouds.com/shopping/kit_info.asp?id=1795  from the ebook I've had for ages despite only having a 4 shaft loom until a couple of months ago. 

I'm not sure how best to describe the problem I'm having - but I'll give it a try.  I'm using the skeleton tie up - because I only have 10 treadles. Treadle one has shafts 3 thru 8 tied up.  Treadle two only shafts 1 and 2 tied up.  Remaining treadles all have shaft 2 tied up - along with varying other shafts.  (Sorry - tried to cut and paste tie up portion of the draft and couldn't.)  When I try to weave plain weave using treadle one and two - as per the draft - shaft two is always up.  It stays up even when I'm pressing only treadle one.  When I step on treadle one all of the other treadles (except treadle two) also depress - which makes shaft two rise along with the others. All of my warp threads threaded on shaft two are continuously up - obviously not what is supposed to happen - but I don't know how to fix it.

I feel like I'm missing something silly here.  Admittedly I'm rushing to get going on this project as I'm on a gift deadline with it.  Also - I've been weaving on a counterbalance loom for years now - so I'm a bit out of practice with jack looms. 

If anyone out there can understand my garbled problem description or has experience with this draft and has pointers - I'd really appreciate the help. 

Thanks so much to everyone!

Comments

Mon, 06/16/2014 - 18:49

laurafry

Sounds like a loom issue.  What loom are you using?  Some looms tend to have shafts 'float' at the best of times, worse with a tie up like this (or Bronson Lace which has treadle one tied up to shaft one, treadle two all the rest - which then makes shaft one rise along with everything else.)

You can weight shaft two, or attach a bungee cord to help keep it down when it is supposed to *be* down - depending on the loom you have.

cheers,

Laura

Mon, 06/16/2014 - 20:17

Sara von Tresckow

Per your description, shaft 2 will rise no matter how you treadle - 1: 3-8 plus 2:1 and 2  - will raise ALL shafts

other treadles: 2 plus a pattern shaft

You do not list any treadling combination where 2 is not raised.

 

Mon, 06/16/2014 - 20:56

Su Butler

Plain weave in Summer and Winter is achieved by depressing treadles that raise shafts 1 and 2 against treadles that raise all the rest of the shafts.  It sounds like your pattern is set up to weave the pattern dukagang style, which means that every time a pattern combination is raised, so is shaft 2.  That is fine as long as you treadle the tabby picks in between each pattern pick.  So let's say your pattern calls for a treadle tied to shafts 2,3,4,6,7.  You would raise those shafts and throw a pattern pick.  That would be followed by the tabby created by raising shafts 1 and 2.  (Your tabby pick is probably going to be the same thread as your warp and your pattern weft will be a different color and a bit thicker.)  Then a second pattern pick, with say a treadle tied to shafts 2,5,6, 8 followed by the opposing tabby pick, which is shafts 3-8.  In a tied weave like Summer and Winter, woven dukagang style, the treadling goes as follows:

Tabby a - raise shafts 1 and 2

pattern pick - raise tie down on shaft 2, plus all pattern threads for the pattern pick

Tabby b - raise shafts 3-8

pattern pick - raise tie down on shaft 2 plus all the pattern threads required for that pick.  

The tabby pick weaves the ground cloth and the order of the tabby pick MUST be consistent throughout the cloth.  The pattern is woven by raising a tie down warp (one on shaft one or two) plus any pattern shafts required to create the desired pattern.  The tie down order MUST remain the same for the entire weaving....so if you pattern calls for shaft 2 to be raised all the time when patterns are being woven, that is what you should do.  To weave "normal" Summer and Winter, the pattern picks would use the tie down warp alternately....i.e. 1+pattern shafts, tabby a, 2+ pattern shafts, tabby b.

Hope that helps.

Su :-)

Mon, 06/16/2014 - 22:40

sequel (not verified)

A too tight warp or too closely sleyed can cause shafts to rise.

It could be you have threads crossed in the heddles that are tying two shafts together.  Your treadle tie-ups could be hanging up or crossed up. Or, maybe even a heddle that's crossed from one shaft to another - it happens!

 

 

 

Tue, 06/17/2014 - 00:27

famcruisefun (not verified)

Su

Yes - this is woven dukagang style, and yes - every time a pattern combination is raised so is shaft 2.  The problem is with the one treadle that doesn't raise shaft 2.  That is treadle 1 and it is tied up to raise shafts 3-8, but it is also raising shaft 2. Consequently all of my warp threads threaded on shaft 2 are always up. 

Thank you for the information regarding keeping the tabby picks in consistent order.  I'll remember that when I get to that point - which will be as soon as I solve my shaft 2 problem so that I can weave the plain weave I need to do to start the towel. So far even the plain weave won't work because shaft two lifts all the time - even with the one treadle it isn't tied to.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you or anyone else may have.

Tue, 06/17/2014 - 11:59

sequel (not verified)

Schact makes some bungee things to pull treadles back up when not in use.  They go in those empty holes across the back of your loom's center section. 

What's you yarn and sett?  if your warp is sett too closely, this problem is more likely to happen.

Tue, 06/17/2014 - 19:38

famcruisefun (not verified)

Thanks everyone.  I've rigged something with a bungee we had here - I'm going to look into ordering the real thing from Schact.

The warp is 8/2 cotton and it's sett at 20epi.  I think it's just the tie up that's doing it - if I untie even one shaft from that first treadle - the number two shaft issue goes away.  I tried having 3.4.5 tied to treadle 1 and 6,7,8 tied to treadle 10 - then stepping on both to weave those picks - but shaft two still went with the rest.  Bungees are the answer. 

Thanks again!

Tue, 06/17/2014 - 20:13

jander14indoor (not verified)

Careful, I think the Schacht Bungees pull the treadle back up, but that wouldn't pull the shaft down.  The shafts pull the jacks lifting the shaft via a string, can't push on a string worth a darn to push the jack back up and pull shaft down.

Hope that makes sense.

 

Jeff Anderson

Livonia, MI

Wed, 06/18/2014 - 00:24

sandra.eberhar…

Actually, the rubber bands attached to the back of a Schacht are to hold the shafts down, not to hold treadles up.  I never used them on mine, but I hear that they are usefull if you have floating shafts.

Wed, 06/18/2014 - 01:25

sally orgren

Our guild just completed a tied weave exchange, and a similar problem came up for one of our members, just on a different loom type. So chances are it's not your loom.

I don't know your Cotton Clouds pattern, but I am assuming half your warp is on shafts 1 & 2, correct? 

What I did was make those two separate treadles, so I could lift 1 and then add 2 to the lift when needed with the pattern shafts. When they needed to be lifted together (for background), then I could use one foot over both treadles.

The second thing to consider is weaving the pattern "upside down". When I thought about that, I realized I would be lifting far fewer shafts. So I re-did my tie up the reverse of what I was sampling with.

In the final version, I came up with a modified tie-up using just 9 shafts, not 10, so it can be done! (Thanks to Su Butler's tied weave class, where we spent three days on a table loom. Believe it or not, that deeper knowledge from hand-treadling the shafts independently will help you when you least expect it!)

Before tying up, I make sketches of my intended treadling(s) and "dance" with my feet under the table so I know what I am planning will make sense to my head and my feet.

Finally, re-designing tie-ups to keep your body balanced on the bench. If there is a frequently-pressed treadle that is lifting a lot of shafts, and it specified to be on the perimeter of the loom, I would move that treadle to be more directly under my body, so I can apply less force to lift, and won't have to torque my knee and ankle to make that kind of far reach left or right.

I posted the project here at Weavo if you want to take a peek. The last 2 towels are in the process of being woven off.

http://www.weavolution.com/project/sally-orgren/art-deco-dishtowels

Wed, 06/18/2014 - 19:44

BWeaves

This is a problem on all multishaft jack looms.  If you tie up more than half the shafts to one treadle, it will cause the untied shafts to float.  

Schacht has bungee things on their looms to tie to your treadles.   Leclerc has springs on their looms to tie to your treadles. Other loom manufacturers have other springy things on their looms. These springy bungee things stretch when you treadle, but they don't allow the treadles to go down when NOT treadled, so the attached shafts don't float up by themselves.  

Don't worry, it's not you and it's not your brand of loom.  It happens on all multishaft looms when you have a very uneven tie-up.  Easy fix, though.