Anyone happen to know where there are good plans for a small floor loom - 36" jack type - preferably with front and back beams that fold for storage? I'd like to start with 4 shafts and expand to 8 in a year or two.

Thanks!

 

 

Comments

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 16:52

kerstinfroberg

On older Swe (home built) looms you often see old circular saw blades, like this:

The pawl is on the primitive side, too:

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 20:26

pammersw

I saw some nice 4 inch saw blades at Lowes last night, which would have been fine as a ratchet! 

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 10:25

ReedGuy

There is a brush saw blade, by Windsor (made in Sweden), much the same as Kerstin's blade there. Most all brands of brush saw blade sold here in Canada are all made in Sweden now, except for Stihl, which is made in Japan. The heavy brush saws are made in Germany. My ratchet wheels are very similar to Kerstin's, only mine are 1/4" plate steel. I had to have mine plasma cut to get a square hole for the roller shaft. But they will never brake.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 21:35

pammersw

The rope and weight method of tensioning is interesting! That would make the design much simpler,  also. Thanks for the idea.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 22:20

sandra.eberhar…

Here are a couple of pictures of a different kind of ratchet and pawl.  The ratchet is made of wood, and the pawl is a wooden handle with a bolt through it to catch the teeth of the ratchet.  The wooden handle is held down with a spring.  Home made.  This will provide very high tension, if needed.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 22:46

sandra.eberhar…

Here is a clearer image of the wooden ratchet and pawl.  This works very well because the warp tensioner is a boat trailer winch that provides very fine adjustment;  I can let out a couple of notches of warp out and tighten it up with the trailer winch.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 23:47

pammersw

LOL,  I do the same thing with the cloth beam ratchet and warp beam crank on the rented baby wolf! :)

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 02:50

MMs-and-OOs-Ha…

This book by James D Scarlett, the tartan guy, has a schematic for an English style floor loom, http://www.amazon.com/weave-cloth-James-Desmond-Scarlett/dp/0835929876. It also includes meaurements to build a heck-block warping reel. The loom is not small nor do I imagine that it would fold but it is interesting.
Fri, 03/07/2014 - 06:49

pammersw

Woods....

While I would love to use hard maple, birch, or cherry (cherry!), the economics of this project will probably result in it being made of oak.

I will probably do something like the boat winch on the warp beam, and one of the ratchet alternatives on the cloth beam.

While I'm figuring out the design of everything,  and how to make it work,  of course I will be keeping my eyes open for that rarest of miracles,  a used loom in repairable condition,  in my state, for a price I can afford. If one doesn't turn up in the next few months, then I will build my own.

Thank you all for your input and wonderful information. 

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 10:43

ReedGuy

I would use a closed grain wood on the beams as oak can cause snagging of yarns. There is a reason why loom makers use closed grain wood.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 14:03

pammersw

Can you give an example of a closed grain wood? I don't know what that means.

I was planning to sand it all to a santiny smoothness, then use either a satin danish oil rubbed finish, or a satin polyurethane.  Both would close the grain. Would that be ok?

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 19:31

ReedGuy

Ok, some explanation. All wood has pores, and most of the wood is conducting tissue with various diffentiated types of cells. That part of the tree we saw boards from. Some woods such as maple, cherry, birch, beech have very minute pores that are very hard to see even with 10x magnification and they are fairly uniform in size, but vary slightly from the early part of the growing season until the end of growth for the year and they are considered diffuse as these pores are randomly distributed in the ring. This gives a closed grain to the wood.

Other trees produce much larger pores at the beginning of the growing season which form a distinctive band consisting of 1 or more rows. This is called ring porous, giving an open grain to the wood. Species in this group are the oaks, ash, sassafras, elms, locusts, hickories, and walnut.

It is difficult to get the polished smoothness in oaks that you get in maple. I would use the Danish finish on loom wood, but I would want a wood that can be polished real smooth. If you find the oak does not work on your beams, you could always find some maple for the beams. I find red oak to be splintery stuff. And hard maple is even better than birch because edges are harder to smooth up in birch.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 16:42

SallyE (not verified)

Before you start on this project, you need a written parts list and need to price out the parts.   Even nuts / bolts / screws can really add up, and then there are heddes, maybe a ratchet and pawl, finishing chemicals, etc., etc.  

You can easily spend more than you would on a used loom, even taking into account the gas money to pick up a loom.  But you have to be willing to watch the local market and act when a loom becomes available!

And, since you plan to sell wovens, you need a written business plan.   Without these two plans, this endeavor will not work for you financially.

We were all beginners as some point, and fell in love with weaving.  That is where you are right now.  But as the song says, "when you heart is on fire, the smoke gets in your eyes."

PS.   I agree with ReedGuy, and would NEVER use oak for a loom, even for the parts that don't touch the yarn.   It just splinters too easily.

 

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 19:27

pammersw

While I'm figuring out the design of everything,  and how to make it work,  of course I will be keeping my eyes open for that rarest of miracles,  a used loom in repairable condition,  in my state, for a price I can afford. If one doesn't turn up in the next few months, then I will build my own.

My state is big, and I'm near the middle. It can take 7 hours or more of highway driving to get to some parts of it! So I'm not limiting my self to "within my city" or "100% ready to use" or something unrealistic like that.

I first wove 40 years ago, and was good, and I loved it. I've wanted a floor loom for 35 years. Maybe I'm getting a little bit impatient and want to get this adventure into high gear! lol 

I will figure out the design ahead of time, but buy parts as I go to spread out the cost. That's what we did building the yurt and the boat and it worked well.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 19:37

ReedGuy

That's the way to go, don't rush into it, and buy elements for making the loom as you can afford it. Depending on the joint types used to make this it can get time consuming just doing those. I say, enjoy the journey. :)

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 20:03

pammersw

We were looking at router bits the other day. That should work for the harness channels, we said. Planning a lot before buying anything!

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 23:01

Queezle

Pammers, I've been thinking about your loom issue, and I even looked at the classified ads in your area..  you are right that there isn't much.

But as someone who occasionally sells used things (e.g. gymnastics matt and balance beam), it takes a fair amount of effort to write an ad - photos, description, and deciding on price. So there might be lots of people who would like to get rid of their looms, but lack the motivation to place an advertisement.

Have you thought about placing a WANTED ad?  You could even offer partial payment as two dishtowels a year for five years.  Someone with a used loom might see your ad and find it a great opportunity to clear out their space and make you happy.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 00:27

pammersw

You know, that is something I hadn't thought of! I posted a "wanted" someplace last fall, but nothing on Craigslist and nothing since October. I will give that a try.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 03:20

jander14indoor (not verified)

A comment on the type of loom you are considering building.  Sounds like you are thinking of a Jack loom.  From an ease of building point of view I suspect you are taking on the hardest type to build, requiring the most specialized parts. 

Having studied a number of looms with a woodworker's eye, I have to say the dead simplest floor loom has to be a counterbalance mechanism.  One set of lams, no tracks, simple rollers or horses.  Heddle frams can be as simple as two sticks.  No finicky tracks needed.  No special purpose parts, not very sensitive to design details to work right.

Next simplest to build, but harder to engineer because proportions have to be right is a countermarch loom.  My Cranbrook has no special purpose parts other than the ratchets & reed.  All the wood parts are basically straight sticks of varying sizes or dowels.  The heddles are hand tied and work fine.  Getting the proportions on the lams right without an example would require a set of plans or some fancy mechanical layout, but a lot of good examples are out there to copy from.

All the jack looms I've seen have more 'specialized' parts.  Metal heddle frames, tracks that have to be right (remember that moving wood stuff) for the frames to move smoothly, jack mechanisms made of metal (wood might work, but I haven't seen any yet) that would definitely need mechanical layout to make sure they work as intended.  Metal working skills and tools to make the Jack mechanism parts.  Nothing fancy, but if you haven't got them, woodworking tools just won't work. 

I'm not saying you CAN'T do it, but for the difficulty, I certainly wouldn't start with a jack design to make my own loom.

Jeff Anderson

Livonia, MI

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 07:24

Artistry

Pammersw, An interesting site for used looms that I've had my eye on, though have never bought through, is Homestead Weaving Studio. Looms are from all around the country. Look for the used equipment tab.
Sat, 03/08/2014 - 10:54

ReedGuy

As per loom type, they say a countermarche is also a lot easier to weave on than a jack loom. And as Jeff said it's mostly wood. Except some threaded rod you cna pick up at the hardware store and Texsolv heddles and button eye cords purchased at many loom distributors. If you have a lathe, you can make your own jack pullies as well or buy plastic ones instead. The lower lamms are heavier and longer than the upper lamms, and the weight combination of the shaft and it's upper lamm counter weigh the lower lamms. The lower lamms are a little longer than the loom width for the cords to reach the outter pullies in the jack frame up on the castle. Use one species of wood and figure out the cubic volume of each counter weight. Most of the work is the jointery. A bird beak bit with wood all equal width and length will make your rollers and they will be strong. Close the ends and pin a face on the roller into the closed end that has the ratchet so it won't slip. The shaft ends will be glued into the ends. The pin will secure it from tearing free under tension. The brackets to hold the lamms and treadles can be easier made from joint brackets found in the building section of a hardware store. They usually have bins of them. You can hack saw off the ends take the sharp edges off on a grinder and felt wheel with honing compound and drill holes for the threaded rod that goes through the ends of the lamms and treadles. A drill press is needed to make straight holes, it can not be free handed.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 15:50

Dawn McCarthy

Reed guy, I actually joined 2 sections of warp beam together from an old LeClerc to fit onto the 63inch Glimakra, on one end I put the brake drum so I can easily advance the warp while seated and have warp weighted tension, the other end has the ratchet and pawl - both options on one beam.  Very happy with it.

Dawn

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 17:06

ReedGuy

Yes, I was following your thread there and am glad it has worked out. :)

I finished turning a couple roller sections this week and am awaiting my ends from Camilla Valley so I can get exact measurements for roller length and trim off the access. I'll find a big washer for the ends so the metal is on the steel washers and not against wood and give'r a shot of Bostik. I have these to mount the upper roller blocks to the loom frame. I'll also use a hidden dowel between the frame and block to stop any side sway.

Http://www.leevalley.com item # 00U11.01  straight panel connector.

They swing, so if you remove the blocks you can rotate them parallel to the loom frame and they wont stick out to poke yourself. Made in Denmark BTW. 3mm thick (slightly under 1/8") zinc plated steel.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 18:45

pammersw

My boyfriend has a drill press, grinder,  and all sorts of tools like that. I've gotten pretty good at using the drill press. :)

He also has a certificate as a machinist,  so he might be able to make stuff for me if the school would allow him to use their equipment. 

I've not ever seen or used a counterbalance loom in person, so I can't comment on that. I suppose seeing one and treadling it a few minutes would be a good idea before I conclusively decide on a jack-type design!

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 19:12

sequel (not verified)

All these cautionary tales... there is no reason why you couldn't make a loom with overhead jacks from any good straight lumber.  It may not be your dream loom, but you will have a loom.  If splintering is a problem, cover breast and back beams with close fitting pipe Cranbrook used steel, you might try PVC.  Heddle bars can be anything long and straight you can hang a heddle on.  Look in The Book Of Looms and Handloom Weaving Technology by Allen Fanning.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 19:43

ReedGuy

Pammersw, I think you can make this happen. Just decide on the design I guess. I would go countermarche instead of counterbalance. Although the height may be a little higher because of the jacks up top. There is nothing at all sophisticated about it. Use heavy cross pieces for the sizzer joint if you want it to fold. I think you should make one with good depth, then you can fold the back beam up to the harnass and not fold the front half. Look at Oxabach (spelling) looms. :)

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 00:13

Swampweaver

Is it possible for you to barter some services that you currently could do for full,or partial payment on a new loom or a used one? There are a number of small fiber related businesses that sell looms in New Mexico. Often the owner may need help in some fashion, but can't afford an employee. You seem to have some woodworking skills- that could be worth a lot to a small business. You may be able to trade hours for loom discount. Yan stores may know a weaver who is getting ready to trade up, and willing to sell their existing loom quickly, or barter with you. I think the idea of advertising that you want a loom is a good one. I see a lot of ads for used looms sold by relatives of weavers who unable to do the advertising themselves, or are deceased. There are a lot of looms hiding in back rooms, garages, attics waiting for a home. Also please don't let the comments suggesting it would be cheaper,easier to just buy one dissuade you. We are WEAVERS, and we all know that cloth can be bought cheap and easy-- we just prefer to do it another way.
Sun, 06/22/2014 - 06:43

ZenSojourner

I completely sympathize.  Perpetual waiting when you have other options (such as woodworking skills, a brain, and hands that work) is not really a good solution to your situation at this time.  Have you taken a look at the Glimakra Julia?  It is a small countermarch loom that could be fairly easily copied. 

There are enough people on here who have successfully built much larger countermarch looms to provide advice/assistance with the "hard" parts such as the warping beams and necessary gearing.  The "Flying-8" is also a good option - I think the plans for it would be worth the cost.  I know you stated a preference for a jack loom - but frankly the countermarch will be MUCH easier to build, requires far less in the way of special metal parts that have to be fabricated or purchased at high cost, and will be much less complicated to build.

I, too, have spent months looking for looms in an area not too far from where you are, and in the 3 or 4 months I've been looking exactly ONE loom has come up that was anything close to appropriate - and it was a 40 year old Nilus, 60".  Worn parts and damage from 40 years of being in a desert are realistic concerns with that loom, LOL!  There are not "lots of looms" in the SW - at least not for sale.  If someone has links to used equipment that I don't have, please share them! 

I waited 15 years for the time to be "right" for me to buy a loom - the result being that I am now partially disabled and no longer able to make full use of a loom any more.  Plus, I have lost 15 years of time I could have been weaving.  I wish I had access to plans such as for the Flying 8 15 years ago because I CERTAINLY could have built myself a loom like that back then. I can't now.

My advice is to go for it!  You never know what will happen.  I thought I would have time - but time is the one thing we should never count on having.

If you build yourself a small countermarch loom and then have to move again, it shouldn't be a problem to break it down and pack it up. 

I, too, had gotten used to the idea of a jack loom, and that is in fact the only loom I've spent much time weaving on.

However, when I began seriously looking for looms recently (because, really, what the heck am I waiting FOR at this point???) the more I looked around, the more it seemed to me that many of the innovations on various modern jack and counterbalance looms are aimed at making them operate more like countermarch looms.  !!!!

Think about it - one reason people give for preferring jack type looms is that they handle unbalance weaves - just like countermarch looms.

There are shed regulators on counterbalance looms - so you can more easily weave unbalanced patterns - just as countermarch looms can.

The hinged back treadles on the newer Leclerc Nilus II looms and various other modified treadle designs by other manufacturers - so you can get a better shed - more like what you get on countermarch looms.

When you had to use string heddles and twine for tie ups, yes, countermarch looms were kind of a pain.  When they were all really tall, had huge footprints - yes, people in regular modern houses with lower ceilings (usually under 8' as opposed to older houses with 10' to 12' ceilings like the old farmhouse I grew up in) had a need for the smaller footprint and shorter stance you get from the jack looms. 

But with the advent of Texsolv heddles and Texsolv cord for tie ups, and smaller designs such as the Flying 8 and the Julia, I guess I'm not sure why jack looms continue to dominate the loom market in the US - except that I guess by now people are just used to that type of loom.  And you're not going to get a really small tabletop loom or foldable loom except with the jack loom type of design (or a rigid heddle).  But for floor looms - I don't see that the jack loom really has any significant advantage other than familiarity.  Perhaps I'm wrong; but I feel very comfortable going to the countermarch instead.

In your situation especially I think it makes a lot of sense to consider building a countermarch loom.  I don't think you can hit your cost target if you stick to a jack type of loom because of the many specialized metal parts you will need for that.

For myself, given that I no longer have the ability to build my own, my only real option at this point (given the nonavailability of used looms in the area) is to buy new.  So I will be ordering a new Julia in just a few days.  But you still have the option of building your own.  There is no real reason why you shouldn't try.  All that waiting got me was a  reduction in my options and significant loss of weaving time, LOL!

Sun, 06/22/2014 - 20:30

pammersw

Thank you,  Zen. :) I mentioned at guild I was looking for a loom and found a good condition 48" folding Pendleton,  that is about half mine now (she agreed to take payments). It is costing me about what the wood and stuff to make one would have. :)

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 23:28

keith20mm

While this is an ancient thread, and pammersw has probably long found a loom, let me tell you about my loom construction experience.

In 1979, I built the loom described in Loom Construction by Jeri Hjert and Paul Von Rosenstiel.  This loom I built for my mother's Christmas gift.

This is a 4-harness jack loom, with about 48" beam width.

I built the loom of red oak and a small bit of pine.  For the ratchets, I used bicycle sprockets to lock the warp and cloth beam.

On a small lever pulled by a spring, I used 3/8" carriage bolt protruding enough to fit into the teeth of the sprocket... poor man's ratchet, worked great.

The heddle shafts were 1/4" aluminum round.  The heddle shafts retained into harness frame using cup hooks.  The heddle shaft frames separated by 1/4" all thread and nuts.  In the castle uprights, 1/8" steel rods created the partitions for the frames to operate in.

The warp and cloth beam of 2x with 1x cheeks, screwed onto the 2x, making uniform warp and cloth beams.  The beam axles 1/2" bolt stock, sawed off bolt head end epoxied into holes bored into the beam ends.  Careful to center the holes.

The breast and back beams of oak, and good thing, considering the tension applied to these areas... I found many years later that pine will not work for long here.

This loom uses many sliding glass door rollers for the overhead lifting cords, there are pulleys at each side of the castle top, and the cords descending to the harness frames lift screw eye bolts into the frames.

Some of the oak I used on this loom, and accessories, came from ripped apart pallets... mostly from rough sawn oak purchased at a wood supplier, then planed at a lumber mill.  The planning cost at the mill was unbelievably low.

The loom worked fine for the years my mother used it.  However, the treadling was, in my opinion, overly heavy, due to the weight of the harness frames, plus the roller friction.

After I built a new house for my parents, she was through with the loom, so I carried it back to my home in Dallas, eventually dismantling the entire machine and using the materials in other projects.

In the interrim, I built a large 12 treadle, overhead swing beater, 10 harness countermarch on Swedish pattern, much like Glimakra.  This loom was built of mahogany in the side frames, and cross members.  Shafts, treadles, lams of birch.  The back and breast beam of laminated pine... big mistake... Under tension, the wood began to groove.

This loom used 1/4" aluminum plate for the ratchets, which I very carefully cut using, yes, a band saw... very tough to do, at that high speed.

The hand wheels I had made of mahogany 2", a local guy turned all the handles, of which a few I still have.

This loom would easily fit a 54" width, plus, and I outfitted with reeds in 10, 12 and 15 dents.

This loom moved with me to a new house in 1987.  It sat practically unused for years.  In 2006 or so, I donated that loom to someone in the Dallas Weaver's Guild... hopefully, that loom is still in use.  It's a true beauty, with a fly shuttle beater.  The treadling was exceptionally smooth and light.  Kinda wishing I still had it, because I have a great place in this house for it...

After construction of the countermarch, I also built an upright tapestry loom, of about 4' total width.  This loom was 2-harness, floor treadle, with lead counterweights on arms to return the beater to the up position... warp beam up top, cloth beam below..  Most of this loom of pine, some leftover mahogany.  The handwheels were simple crossbars with locking pegs, no sprockets/ratchets.  This loom arranged as an A-frame, and the rear legs could fold to the front, to reduce the whole loom, once beater removed, to the width of about 5-6".  The A's crossbar a 1x4 retained by carriage bolts with wing nuts for collapsibility.

The countermarch and the tapestry looms both used Texsolv cord and heddles.

When I moved to this (hopefully final) home, I left the tapestry loom in the Dallas house garage attic... who knows where it is today.

Now I'm on the hunt for a smaller loom plan, or design another.  It will be a parallel countermarch, probably 8 less 4 (begin with 4, add more as desired), in the 48" width... underslung beater, most likely, treadles mounted under front lower crossmember, instead of Swedish form, under rear pivot.  I'm considering making the frame somewhat foldable, although that isn't an important design factor.

The reason for parallel countermarch is simple, the treadles will all operate at same level, as opposed to the angle resulting from the uneven length lams.

I am using Cubify Design (practically same capability as Cubify Invent) to design the parts.  The nice thing about Cubify is that you can design parts, and them place them into assembly to check fits/positions/etc.  And once you are satisfied with the part, it will produce a nice drawing that you can then take to the shop to make the part.

Cubify is principally used to make 3d printed parts on hobby printers.And as 3d printing goes, some parts, such as harness shaft hangers will be 3d printed...  3d printer very, very useful.. made a zillion curtain hangers, shop and kitchen parts, car parts, parts for bath shower caddy, bottle funnels, boxes for electronic projects, parts for pinball machines, blah blah.

Looms aren't too tough to build, some of the tools you should probably have are table saw, belt sander, small router table for edge-rounding, drill press, hand drill, and as I recall, most tools needed were mentioned in the Loom Construction by Jeri Hjert and Paul Von Rosenstiel book.

That book is generally avaiable on inter-library loan, and was definitely found in the Ouachita Parish Public Library, Monroe, La, on 18th St, at that time.

The countermarch loom plans I drew up, in 1/4 scale, were, unfortunately, discarded, years ago.. a stupid, foolish move, as was donating the loom itself..

No use crying over lost looms... build another to suit.

I modeled Meinolff's 4-harness foldable loom in Cubify, if anyone is interested, I can share the part files.

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 22:29

pammersw

Post #79, right above yours, I found a loom. But I enjoyed reading your description of what you built! 

Wed, 12/02/2015 - 22:29

pammersw

Post #79, right above yours, I found a loom. But I enjoyed reading your description of what you built! 

Sat, 12/05/2015 - 11:01

Nassajah (not verified)

If you really want to make your own loom, here's a site that offers a free plan:

http://joyofweaving.com/articles/free-4-shaft-counter-balance-floor-loom-plans

https://www.cs.arizona.edu/patterns/weaving/webdocs/df1_loom.pdf

Mon, 12/07/2015 - 17:07

Joanne Hall

You have a challenge and I hope you succeed.  If you do this, do get back to us with your results. 

The problem with the parallel cm is that it has nearly double the pulleys and cords, which creates more friction and so harder treadling.  If you can solve that problem, that would be good.  And with treadles attached in the front, it is more difficult to treadle. 

And, remember that making it tall does not take up more space.  Tall gives you more treadling comfort from sitting higher.  And if you can retain the hanging beater, it can be a heavier beater, easier to beat and it is easier on your shoulders.

Just a few thought for your next loom project.

Joanne