Have rewarped the loom to practice the exercises in Carol Russell's book, Tapestry Handbook: The Next Generation. I was having some problems with losing tension early on but that is now fixed, at least temporarially. Now I am haveing real problems with the edges waisting - I have undone this several times but no matter what I do in terms of thread placement this weft for the header continues to gravitate to the centre. The segments of 'thin fuzzy wool' as described in Russell's book is supposed to have solved the problem allowing the header to have straight edges. 

Any suggestions in terms of technique? In the picture below the first weft is 2 ply carpet wool, the second in an acrylic, the third is a thin 'baby wool' and the last, the header, is 12/9 seine twine, the same as the warp. The warp is 6 epi - every second dent in a twelve dent reed.

This is my first warp on a floor loom, a four shaft countermarche.

Thanks for any suggestions. Happy to pull it apart again until I get it right.

HakimWaisting warp 1st project on this loom

Comments

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 13:03

SallyE (not verified)

Do you mean that the edges are pulling in?   A temple helps a lot with that.   And there are several ideas for DIY inexpensive temples on this site.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 13:20

tommye scanlin

Hakim,

The problem with draw-in happens when the weft is being pulled too tightly, not having enough "bubble" or "arc" to break up the path of the weft.  In the photo, the size of the weft changes dramatically... the light color is very thin compared to the fuzzy header area where the warp sett was done.  Also, the 12/9 seine twine sett at 6 epi is a bit too far apart for that particular warp to use for weft faced.  It will almost invariably draw in unless there's a larger weft and several areas of weft arcing across the width.  

Tommye

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 14:10

BoyLearner

Is doubling or tripling the 12/9 going to solve the problem with the header pulling in? I thought the 12/9 would be fine as Russell specifically says 12/6 or heavier sett at 6 epi. Perhaps I need to rewarp at 12 epi? It is for a sampler for which I have wound on 5 metres aiming for 10" wide - only 60 ends so far. I would rather have it correct at the start so I can focus on learning correct technique.

I have decided I want to focus on kilims and tapestry (rather than trying to do a little of everything) so errors like this are important learning.

Again thank you.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 14:19

BoyLearner

Temple was the first thing I thought of but I don't think it should be needed for a tapestry. I may come to regret that thought.

Hakim

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 14:37

Joanne Hall

Hi Hakim,

The header can be a finer thread, maybe 16/2 linen.  And you would only need three or four shots of it.  A finer weft will cover better.  You don't need to weave so much header unless you want it to be a hem.  And in that case, a finer more flexible weft is more suitable. 

If you tie fewer warp ends into a knot when you tie on, you will have better tension.  And if you tie on as shown in my warping book, which you have, you will not need to weave in all that waste material.  The warp will spread out very quickly.

Joanne

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 15:02

BoyLearner

I still have Tying Up the Countermarch open on my desk - I found it very useful getting to where I am. And I promise not to deviate from How to Warp when I start my next project. I can see smaller warp groupings lets me start off better alligned with the reed.

The reason I have done what I have with the header is because Russell says to in her book and I didn't know any better. Russell has set out her book with each chapter as a series of techniques to practice. The header at the start and finish will be used in the second last chapter which is on blocking, finishing and mounting.

For the header I have a range of 6/2 Tuna wool or some 8/2 cotton I can use; Russell says to use the same yarn used for the warp. I can get different cotton in a couple of days when the Guild next meets.

Hakim

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 19:55

tommye scanlin

Hakim, In my opinion, the Russell sett is too open for the 12/9 seine twine. In weft faced weave, as tapestry is, there should be space for the weft to go into between the warps, as you know. But if the warp/weft relationship is too out of balance then the cloth will be sleazy, for one thing, and you'll need more weft picks per inch than you'd expect. Archie Brennan recommends in his article, The Space Between the Warps (found at the American Tapestry Alliance website in the Ed. Articles) that one can determine the sett for any warp for tapestry by wrapping the warp under consideration around a centimeter ruler, within one centimeter and closely packing together the warps... AND THEN USING THAT NUMBER as the ends in each INCH. Sorry about the all caps, but don't have an underline or bold feature here to emphasize that... the wraps per centimeter will be interpreted as warps ends per inch. That would give a "classic" sett for warp with a particular size weft. Then one could consider opening the sett more, lets say if a thicker weft would be used, or tightening it more, if the bead of the warp is to be strong--and then thinner weft would be used. I think that frustration quickly arises when the warps are too thin and too widely spaced since exactly the problem that you've run into can occur. With tapestry, you'll be building shapes individually and so the temple shouldn't be needed. Back to your question about sett--you could indeed double the 12/9 at 6 epi. Or you could resley for 12 (or 10 epi, if you have a 10 dent reed). Good luck. Tapestry weaving technique is both alike "regular" weaving and yet it's different. Some of the tried and true hints for weaving fabric don't necessarily apply in the same way (or at all) in tapestry, in my opinion. If you have other specific questions, please don't hesitate to PM me with them. Tommye
Thu, 04/04/2013 - 20:47

sally orgren

It seems hard to find experienced tapestry weavers, so I appreciate keeping the Q's and A's pubic. If I meet a newbie tapestry weaver, I know where to send them to find more of their kind! 

...from low warp weaver who lurks.

Fri, 04/05/2013 - 02:44

BoyLearner

Wrapping the 12/9 around the cm ruler gives me a count of 11 so I will resley the 12 dent reed (the only one I have so far) and double the number of ends to give me the desired 10".

I will start a project page so I will have a blow by blow of 'progress' as I move through Russell's book though I wonder if I should use the Sarosky book which arrived yesterday as the primary guide. I left a message about wanting to buy a couple of her books on Kathe Todd-Hooker's site but have not had a reply in the few weeks since. 

I am excited about tapestry/kilim, more so than any of the other expressions of fibre art that I have seen.

Thank you for your advice and support,

Hakim

Fri, 04/05/2013 - 03:04

Artistry

Boylearner, Yes keep asking your questions! I keep learning as you do! Good luck and enjoy your next tapestry endeavor.
Fri, 04/05/2013 - 12:06

endorph

thread to be very helpful. Thanks for asking questions BoyLearner!
Fri, 04/05/2013 - 12:24

tommye scanlin

Hakim,

The sampler in Russell's book will give a good introduction to the ins and outs of tapestry method & technique.  As you begin, be sure that your weft will be about the size of the space between the warps.  And also be sure to bubble or arc the weft in points across the width of the warp.  You're using a horizontal loom, is that right?  Are you using the beater or will you be using a tapestry beater, fork or comb to pack the weft?  I don't have my Russell book here at the house, but I think that some of the exercises you'll be working through will have you building shapes rather than keeping the web level across.  In those cases you'll have to be packing with something other than the beater/reed in the loom.  So you might begin doing that right away, rather than depending upon throwing the weft across and beating with the beater, as if you'd be doing "regular" weaving.

I keep saying "regular" weaving since that's how I separate tapestry techniques and methods in my mind from the weaving of cloth in which the warp and weft interact with each other by the weaver throwing picks of weft through the open shed and then beating the pick into place--whether that results in warp-faced, balanced, OR weft-faced fabric.  In tapestry weaving, most often the wefts are placed by hand, either in a bundle like a butterfly, or on a bobbin of some kind, like a Gobelin-style with point, or a "bone" with a rounded end at both sides.  The weft is packed into place either with the tip of the bobbin, or with a beater of some sort that only packs the small area of weft that's been inserted.  Of course, there are many styles of tapestry; some techniques have the weft traveling all the way across and then being beaten--interlocks and dovetails usually are used then.  Some methods don't have tails of weft hanging since they're feathered out and overlapped.  Some work from the back of the piece, others work from the front.  All of this to say that whatever I recommend is only based on the methods I use, based upon what I've been taught.  I know that many other different ways of doing something would equally be right and produce the result you want. But the bottom line is that you should strive to get control of the process from the beginning--but to also know that tapestry will remain a constant challenge of discipline!  And yet it's so rewarding!

Fri, 04/05/2013 - 14:19

BoyLearner

The sampler will be woven on a floor loom with a 12 dent reed sitting in the beater. I have the choice of using (borrowed) bobbin points or a metal hand beater I got for weaving Middle Eastern knotted rugs. 

I finished putting the warp on a home made vertical loom last night - my first kilim is going to evolve there - a tapestry by another name. For that one, ironically enough, I'm going to do it row by row with linking threads running the whole width of the kilim. The hand held beater is the only option there.

For the tapestry sampler on the floor loom, affectionately known as 'Moni' after its original owner, the plan is to work according to areas of colour except where the technique except where the instructions say otherwise.

I have found, fortunately sooner rather than later, another glitch in Russell's book (in another life I do volunteer proofreading/editing). On page 164 she says when cutting the tapestry from the loom be sure to leave at least 10" of warp fringes; really need to know that before beginning, not toward the end of the book.

Unfortunately I couldn't finish adding the extra warp ends on the floor loom - have run out of seine twine. Hopefully can get some more at the guild meeting tomorrow otherwise there is a wait of almost a week by mail order.

Hakim

 

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 15:16

BoyLearner

Finally got the extra warp ends on the floor loom and have woven the 'junk', baby wool and twine header for this tapestry sampler project. I will post the picture of work to the same extent as the picture above here for the sake of completion but will start a project now with this picture as the starting place.  Please feel free to comment, critique, criticise as the tapestry unfolds.

 

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 16:22

tommye scanlin

Yes, please keep us up to date with progress. Happy weaving to you!