Hello all!  I am a novice weaver.  I have some limited experience weaving on a rigid heddle loom but could not stand the slow pace.  I just recently bought an Ashford 8-shaft table loom which I love.  With the loom I purchased a warping board.  Its supposed to make warping easier right? Well let me tell you, I have had nothing approaching an easy time with it.  Ive made two scarves on the loom so far.  The first was a disaster.  Too narrow and too short.  But the second came out great (2/2 twill).  Although I had the same problem with the second one as I am now having with the third.  Both were 14" in width so i divided them into 7" bouts.  The problem comes when i want to combine the bouts and beam them.  Everything gets twisted and tangled.  Both times Ive had to cut the ends and comb out the threading cross just so that i could untangle the warp length.  Its infuriating!  And of course because there is no threading cross the threads are out of order.  Any suggestions for preventing this problem and now fiixing the order problems Im having?  Thanks.  Sorry for the length.

Comments

Sat, 04/20/2013 - 17:25

laurafry

Hmm, not sure why you are having so many problems.  Are you beaming the warp while it is tensioned?  A thread under tension is a thread under control.  

You might find the video clips on my You Tube channel helpful.

http://www.youtube.com/user/LauraAnnFry1

cheers,

Laura

Sat, 04/20/2013 - 17:30

Unbeweaveable12

Thanks. I am beaming under tension.  But before I even get there after I put the weft on the raddle, all of the yarn is twisted and mangled.  Could I be putting too much tension on the yarn while I put it on the board?

Sat, 04/20/2013 - 18:27

Sara von Tresckow

Are you choke tying your warp every half yard to keep it under control? YOu also need to tie the cross to keep it orderly. Only then are you safe to remove the chain from the warping board.

Sat, 04/20/2013 - 18:37

laurafry

As Sara says, a choke tie about 24 inches or so from the cross will keep the threads from getting all messed up as you put the threads into the raddle.  If the warp is more than 3 yards, I put additional ties along the length to keep things orderly.  

cheers,

Laura

Sat, 04/20/2013 - 19:47

Dena (not verified)

Are you chaining your warp? It doesn't sound like you're working with a teacher. Where are you getting your technique from? Warping a loom with shafts is a very different process than warping a rigid heddle loom. If you can find a teacher locally to walk you through the process once or twice, it would probably help.

I don't use a comb on my warp...ever...I feel like it's not only the wrong kind of action (getting out knots as opposed to gently tugging on a thread to get it the same length as it's neighbors), I also feel like it puts me one more step removed from feeling what is going on with the threads in my fingers.

What fiber are you working with? I recommend, at the beginning to work with something really easy that has some stretch, but not too much, perhaps a 3/2 cotton which you can sett fairly loosely (12-15 epi) or a Harrisville Highland wool, sett at 8epi. Both are forgiving and go on the loom fairly easily.

Sat, 04/20/2013 - 20:17

Alison (not verified)

If you aren't able to work with a local teacher, consider some of the workshop dvds.  I love Peggy Osterman's and I hear Madelyn's is quite good too.  I can only reiterate the suggestions above - keep your yarn under control with tension and warp ties.  Also, until you are comfortable with the process, try using yarns that are only moderately elastic (not inelastic like linen or overly elastic like many knitting yarns) and avoid overtwisted yarns.

And good luck!

Sat, 04/20/2013 - 20:51

Unbeweaveable12

Thanks for the comments.  I'm using 8/2 cotton and accents of 8/2 tencel.  I'm going to re beam with a helper this time.  I've learned the hard way that solo beaming is not great for a novice.  I've been watching videos online to help with some sticky areas.  Im a full time nurse in nyc so my schedule is a little hectic for a teacher. I am chaining.  Although perhaps I'm twisting da add I chain.  Also how much tension is to much on the warping board? 

Sat, 04/20/2013 - 21:33

Dena (not verified)

It's too much tension on the warping board if the pegs bend. That being said, tencel doesn't respond well to high tension and if you're just getting started and having a hard time, I wouldn't mix fibers in my warp. Some online videos are good and some of them are awful. I have students come back to me with suggestions of really bad habits that they found online. I'm pretty sure that there are some good teachers in NYC (there are certainly some fabulous weavers there) and I'm sure you could find someone to do a one or two hour private with you. Sometimes that's all it takes. For students who don't have much time, I often start them off on what I call, "junk warps". Maybe fifty threads wide of something that they're not attached to that can go on and off the loom really fast. Sometimes we don't even bother to have them weave it off. I'm in Southern VT (four hours from NY) and in a weekend can get you going (www.vermontweavingschool.com), but it sounds like that will be too much of a stretch. If your techniques are good, you should be able to beam solo, even at the beginning. Also, there are many different ways to warp a loom and they don't all necessarily mix and match. I would invest in one video, either of the ones mentioned above and stick with only one person's method for the first 3-5 warps.

Sat, 04/20/2013 - 21:50

laurafry

Dena has given good advice.  Learn one method until you are proficient at it.  And then you might want to try to tweak it until it suits you - your abilities, your equipment, your space.

Sticking with one type of thread in the warp to begin with is also good advice.  

Remember that weaving is a skill that needs to be learned and that takes time and practice.  When learning a new skill or tool, I give myself 7 warps to really learn it and become proficient.

cheers,

Laura

Sun, 04/21/2013 - 01:59

sally orgren

Try the nyc guild. Warping by Yourself is also a terrific book.
Sun, 04/21/2013 - 13:48

NancyHassel

Here is a link to an article on Weavezine with a lot of detail & pictures on warping: http://www.weavezine.com/content/summer-and-winter-bookmark
Sun, 04/21/2013 - 19:53

JacRoyce

I will probably get roundly slammed by the die-hard back-to-fronters again, but before you get 'married' to a mode of warping, I believe it's worth trying the mode through which you sley the reed (thus spreading the warp evenly) first. It's much less complicated, uses fewer tools, and facilitates composing striping at the loom. One place to find good directions is on the WeavingToday.com site.

I've adapted a version of Deborah Chandler's instructions in her Learning to Weave. When using the warping board, I choke-tie (and chain) manageable groups of 20-40 ends. Since you hold the Weaver's Cross in the palm of your hand and use your fingers to manage it when sleying, you don't need raddles or lease sticks. I have no problems with tangles or tension, and the warp is already spread evenly through the reed when I thread the heddles. The only potential drawback is that some yarns are too tender to make 2 trips through the reed and heddles. When I insist on using those yarns for warp anyway, then I'll play back-to-front.

Use the right tool(s) and methods for your body, your loom, and your project.

Good Luck and Have Fun.

(OK. I'm now prepared for the online thrashing...)

Sun, 04/21/2013 - 23:40

Cat Brysch

Let me join you in getting the thrashing...I guess. I have been weaving for over 40 years, have taught and performed every method of dressing a loom and I, TOO, favor front-to-back! I dress several of my looms with 70 ( yes, SEVENTY!) yards at a time and handle it very nicely!

Yes, every weaver develops their favorite methods and tricks and no thrashing should be used on anyone! "Unbeweavable", it almost sounds like you are starting out by taking the wrong thread off the cross...you need to start out with the last thread that was added to the cross...then everything just 'feeds' out smoothly without tangling. To do otherwise would, indeed, make a nightmare of a tangle! Getting an experienced weaver to help you will set you on the path to success with SO little time and effort.....I hope you can get help soon and, if you have further trouble, send us photos before you get in trouble, tell us what you think your next move is and let us guide you from there.

Weavolution is full of weavers willing to help....you can do this!!!

Sun, 04/21/2013 - 23:49

Woodburner

I'm a practical novice, so I may have misunderstood, (are you really making 2 x 7" bouts? ) that seems an awful lot of ends to have only one simple cross to keep them in order. :S

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 00:01

sandra.eberhar…

Madelyn's video is great.  I've been weaving for a while, and I learned a lot.  I don't use any tension when I wind a warp, either on a board or on a reel.  The only tension on the yarn is from the hooks on the cone stand that the yarn feeds from.  I hold my hand in a claw and only guide the yarn.  This gives me a consistent tension.  I prefer to warp b to f, using a trapeze; which may be a roller suspended in front of the loom or a beam across the gallows.  For a table loom, I think I would make a mini-trapeze to get the same effect-it keeps everything under tension all the time.  I do not use many choke ties.  My experience is that if the warp is evenly tensioned, I don't need them and they just get in the way, and if it's not evenly tensioned, they won't save it.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 00:03

DebD (not verified)

I am not a seasoned weaver (only weaving about 3-4 yrs) but I also falling to the F2B camp.  For a beginner without a lot of money for extra tools it was a simple, no frills way to learn how to warp.   I just did my first B2F in a class and I'm not a convert yet...but I know I have to give it a fair chance before making a firm decision.

I'll second M. van der Hoogt's video "Warping Your Loom" from Interweave.  It's been a very helpful resource.  If you go to the interweave website they have a free preview of it.  And I think they're still having their big 50% off sale right now, if you decide to buy it.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 01:43

Unbeweaveable12

Thank you all.  I will be reviewing all of the online material.  The situation as it stands now is I have a full warp beamed onto my loom with no threading cross and cut ends.  The threads are out of order.  should I let out the entire warp reorder the threads one by one and then rebeam with help? or are we talking about a lost cause?  Thankfully Im very patient so the thought of individulally reordering is not particularly daunting.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 02:37

laurafry

I routinely make chains from 10 inches to 15 inches wide. The cross elegantly keeps them in order, no matter how many ends there are. As for FTB or BTF, if you are happy with your results there is no need to change. As for extra tools for BTF, the only 'extra' tool might be a raddle, easily made. Or use a reed as is commonly done in Scandinavia (or my studio). ;) Learn one method very well, then tweak it so that it works well for you given your physical abilities, equipment, space and budget. Rather than focus on methods I try to present principles and let people work out what works best for them. Of course I have very strong preferences for what works for me but each to their own.... Cheers Laura
Mon, 04/22/2013 - 02:37

laurafry

I routinely make chains from 10 inches to 15 inches wide. The cross elegantly keeps them in order, no matter how many ends there are. As for FTB or BTF, if you are happy with your results there is no need to change. As for extra tools for BTF, the only 'extra' tool might be a raddle, easily made. Or use a reed as is commonly done in Scandinavia (or my studio). ;) Learn one method very well, then tweak it so that it works well for you given your physical abilities, equipment, space and budget. Rather than focus on methods I try to present principles and let people work out what works best for them. Of course I have very strong preferences for what works for me but each to their own.... Cheers Laura
Mon, 04/22/2013 - 19:32

laurafry

I've just done a blog post with some musings about beaming a warp for anyone interested.

http://laurasloom.blogspot.com

cheers,

Laura

Wed, 05/08/2013 - 22:45

igaff (not verified)

Hi,  you are not alone, if you read my problems under mangled warp and all the help I have gotten here, you will get it as am.  I also have Maralyn's video, great help.  

I did take the Craftys class for floor loom weaving - it is the best thing I have done for myself.  I am hoping to take a class with Dena - but I live in Southern Vermont, so much easier for me.  I do mean to take business away from anyone, but the Floor Loom weaving clase is wonderful - of course it was after the class I had my problems with 8/2 cotton.  We used wool for the class project - much easier for a new weaver to handle.

Thu, 05/09/2013 - 01:34

cottageweaver (not verified)

You have lots of responses to choose from! You might be happier just making one warp chain for your 14” warp. Using two chains is probably making the process more complicated for you than it needs to be, especially when you are fairly new to warping. Your warp will work fine with just one chain. I most often make warps with 800-2000 ends (or more) and just use one or two warp chains. I’m using a warping mill, though, so you would adjust to the capacity of your warping board. (For the record, I warp b2f, tying my warp chain and cross firmly at crucial points, using lease sticks which stay in place throughout my weaving, and I'm not sure what people mean when they say that b2f takes more equipment. My reeds work fine for rough sleying, and I don’t need sectional warping equipment.) I wouldn't suggest that everyone use the same method, but the advice to learn one solid method well before moving on is very good advice. Just as in any process, it’s helpful to use a cohesive method, not a jerry-rigged one, that yields a warp that is under control at all times throughout the process until the loom is threaded and ready to weave. There’s no need for frustrating tangles that you have to comb through (yikes!), etc. It’s both possible and desirable to get a warp on a loom cleanly and efficiently, but it will take some patience, practice and mentoring to learn. Sounds like you have plenty of patience, so have fun learning and weaving!
Wed, 07/17/2013 - 15:46

Jan Bogue

I am a new member and a beginning weaver.  Here is the question: Warping board pegs are only so long.  Even after putting the threads into inch bundles and sliding them to the base of the 6 inch peg, you can run out of room on the pegs. What do you do?  Do you take that warp off and start another identical warp? This was not a problem on my "Dorthy," but I can see it happening on my "Artisat" which I just bought. :) 

Wed, 07/17/2013 - 16:00

Sara von Tresckow

I usually break wider projects into more than a single warp chain. My personal rule of thumb is about 12" in width or 350-400 threads - whichever gets too thick first.

Medium chains will tangle less and be easier to handle and get a grip on for tensioning purposes as well.

Wed, 07/17/2013 - 16:02

sequel (not verified)

Yes, you take off the warp and make another.  Each warp is tied carefully and set aside (in chains, or just gently laid into a box) or carried to the looms to wait for the next group. 

Wed, 07/17/2013 - 16:49

Jan Bogue

That is what I guessed, but then how you wind them on the back roller? One at a time and then roll back and start the second one?

Wed, 07/17/2013 - 17:04

Sara von Tresckow

You place the chains side by side on the tieon stick through loop at the end of the cross. YOu insert the least sticks through all chains at the same time and warp as usual.

Wed, 07/17/2013 - 17:14

Jan Bogue

Yikes!  Then you fight all those ends going through the lease sticks at the same time?  Ok, I can to this. Maybe. I will do it!  Thanks for being on this site.  I have read several book, watched the videos, but some times there are questions.  Thanks again, Jan

Wed, 07/17/2013 - 18:11

Sara von Tresckow

If you chain a 2-thread warp - using 2 packages or cones at the same time with your finger held between, there will be considerably less friction when winding on.

Also, if you place your raddle  prior to the lease sticks, the raddle pre-straightens the threads so there is additional help. You must beam all threads at the same time unless you are using a sectional warp beam with the proper method and tools.

Wed, 07/17/2013 - 19:36

laurafry

And beam under tension.  Far fewer tangles if you do.  Remember that a thread under tension is a thread under control....

And you might take a look at my You Tube video clips for other hints and tips.  I use a reed instead of a raddle, which is a bit different from most North Americans.  I use a modified Swedish method of beaming my warp.  

Remember that there are many different ways to get a warp onto the loom.  Try several different ways (The Big Book of Weaving will show the Swedish method) and find one that works well for you.

cheers,

Laura

You Tube user name lauraannfry1

Wed, 07/17/2013 - 20:08

Jan Bogue

Sara, are you saying that it helps to hold packages or cones in your hand so the threads will slide easier through?  I like this idea of the raddle ahead of the lease sticks.  Maybe I can make a pre-raddle, raddle. :)  Laura, I will watch the video and check out how to use the reed as a raddle.  

Thanks to both of you, Jan

Wed, 07/17/2013 - 20:59

Jan Bogue

Laura, I watched your bleech bottle weight video.  I will use this idea. But how did you attach the warp to the bottle?  Must be some type of clamp and hook. I marked your other videos soon to watch.  

Glad again to have the help from both of you. Jan

Wed, 07/17/2013 - 21:16

Sara von Tresckow

What I meant was that you warp on your board with 2 threads at a time for each round - you use 2 cones or spools - and you simply hold one finter between the threads at all times to keep them from twisting. Make your chain with the correct number of threads (you only need to make half as many passes with 2 threads), choke tie, remove the chain from the board and start over. When you place the chain on the tieon stick, you'll see these pairs clearly in the cross. I had a student here yesterday who quickly confirmed that using pairs made everything easier.

There is usually a place for the raddle ahead of the lease stick on a loom. Using quick release clamps available at hardware stores, the raddle can be clamped literally anywhere on a loom that it does its work. Likewise for lease sticks - they can be hung from scrap yarn anywhere it is convenient.

Wed, 07/17/2013 - 21:17

sandra.eberhar…

I use gallon vinegar bottles for weights, they have a loop handle built into the plastic bottle.  I put a loop of warp through the handle, pull another loop through it, and stick a wooden spoon through that loop.  I use a home-made raddle that fits almost all my looms; it's a 4' piece of poplar 1x2 with 96 screw eyes in it.  I secure warp section by sliding a 1/4" dowel through the eyes.  This system has worked very well for me and my equipment.  

Wed, 07/17/2013 - 21:58

mneligh

Today, while warping my smaller loom that lacks a sectional beam so I was warping front-to-back, one of by gallon jugs of water developed a leak.  Fortunately, I had a shop vac nearby.

I've switched to exercise weights for now.  They are lighter, but they don't contain liquid.  I've heard bleach bottles are sturdier than milk or water jugs, but I don't use enough bleach to have a half dozen or so that I would need.

Just be aware that jugs of liquid can have issues.

Wed, 07/17/2013 - 22:09

Sara von Tresckow

You can and probably should use solid material for the jugs - sand, rice, sugar, etc.

Wed, 07/17/2013 - 22:13

Jan Bogue

Ok Sara I get what you mean now.  And a bleech bottle or some other waterless weight will do the trick.  A movable raddle is another good idea.  Thanks all, Jan

Wed, 07/17/2013 - 23:02

laurafry

There are various ways to attach the weight to the warp.  Depends on what you are using for a weight, for one thing.  Yes, a bleach bottle with sand/rice rather than water will also work and be better in terms of clean up if the jug does develop a leak.

What I do is use a larks head loop around the warp chain and use an S hook to attach it to the jug, which also has a string tied to it with a loop.  As others have suggested, you can use other things for weight.  The important thing is to have some sort of weight to provide tension. 

Some people wind and jerk.  I prefer to have a consistent weight.  

So long as you are getting the results you want, there is no need to change anything.  But if you aren't happy, you might want to look at some alternatives.

I also use a warping valet now which allows a greater length of warp to be prepped and beamed making the beaming go faster/more efficiently.  Each person has to find what works 'best' in terms of their equipment, the yarn they are using, the space they have available, the budget they may have for toys.  Er, tools.

cheers,

Laura

Thu, 07/18/2013 - 18:14

Walkingquail

lots of good advice. I have to add that Madelyn van der Hoogt's warping video is worth its weight in gold. Also Deborah Chandler's Learning to Weave. Whether you warp f2b or b2f, I find it helps to envision each thread side by side by side all the way through the warping process and keeping them side by side each step of the way, not letting even one thread get out of order because that magnifies down the line as you go through the steps. I also warp alone and I don't use weights, I just pull all threads snug regularly while beaming as in Madelyn's dvd. Also warps that are all the same yarn will definitely help until you are more experienced. Don't give up, remember to breathe.
Fri, 07/19/2013 - 02:53

Jan Bogue

Last year I was able to get the little Dorthy going, so this year I bought the Artisat, a week ago.  I made my own raddle and lease stick holders. Today I made an overhead warp holder and spreader on the back beam. So, I am using a little of everyone's advice.  My test warp is 10 inches wide and will be pulled tight by an S hook and bleach bottle. I will look up the knot suggested.  The next test will be 2 or 3 ten inch  warps and I suppose 2 or 3 bleach bottles. I have trouble keeping extension cords from turning into a collection of knots, and I sure don't want to have the same result with 300 warp threads.  Madelyn's videos got me started on the little Dorthy. I also took one lesson from a teacher in Palm Springs.  She got me through the first dressing of the Dorthy without a mental breakdown. HaHa. 

Thanks again  Jan (John)  As in Jan and Dean  :)

Thu, 07/18/2013 - 23:59

Jan Bogue

Hope all of you can see the above pictures.  I uploaded one twice by mistake. oops. 

Fri, 07/19/2013 - 00:03

Jan Bogue

After I posted my pictures I lost the post about the table 8 shaft loom and the knotty warp like I used to experience on the Dorthy. I was combing it to death.  :)  I hope I didn't bump a post by uploading pictures. 

Jan

Fri, 07/19/2013 - 00:08

Jan Bogue

I like the idea of "keeping all the threads side by side all the way through the process. I will also look up the teacher too.

Thanks for the help, Jan 

Fri, 07/19/2013 - 23:19

Jan Bogue

Used the warp valet approach for the first time. There were some problems: too much water in the jug, too much friction going over the fixture on the ceiling, wrong hookup of rope to warp ends. I will change a few things for the next warping. The warp does look to be tight on the back roller beam.  Now the threading. :)

Mon, 07/22/2013 - 14:18

Jan Bogue

I wanted to see if this post will show as a new post on the index to the forms.  Learning the ways of the system. :)

Tue, 07/23/2013 - 04:14

Jan Bogue

I redesigned my Warping Valet.  There was too much friction as the threads tried to slide over the 1 1/4 inch bare dowel. I greased the dowel and slipped a piece of 2 inch PVC over the dowel. Now it acts like a big frictionless pulley.  Now the water weight will do the job without any extra fiction getting in the way.  

Tue, 07/23/2013 - 13:57

sally orgren

My next house needs a dedicated weaving space. (Or, I need to kick the revenue-generating office out of my house, and reclaim THAT space!) 

Tue, 07/23/2013 - 14:06

Jan Bogue

I like your color wheel.  Did you find it online? 

Tue, 07/23/2013 - 17:01

sally orgren

I learned about this particular color wheel at a weaving workshop in 2002. I ended up buying a bunch, and keep a supply handy in case I lose one. It's two sided, so a lot of good information. It's a product of the Color Wheel Company, created by Artscool Graphics Group. (If you order one, make sure you get the "CMY primary mixing wheel") They are about $8-10 (U.S.) apiece. You can also get them at good art supply stores.