Hi there,

I've been toiling away on a twill sampler, and today I finally was ready to start weaving.  Within a few rows I noticed a few of my warp ends are twisting together.  What is this? Why?! There are maybe 4-5 places across the warp where this is happening.  Strangely, they all occur in the white stripe sections.  The sley is 2 per dent, does that have something to do with it?  I tried to be extra careful while threading, because I was paranoid I would take the wrong thread.  With one per dent it's much easier to know which thread is the next one in the sequence.  Is there an easy way to fix this problem?  Thank you!! 

Twisted Warp Threads

 

Comments

Thu, 04/14/2016 - 18:45

Sara von Tresckow

Yes, learn to warp back to front - where you wind the warp on the warp beam using a simple raddle. When finished, you pick the threads in proper sequence out of the cross held on the lease sticks tied behind the castle. Lastly, you take the threads in the heddles in proper sequence through the reed. 

What you are experiencing is why I never teach weavers to use this method, as it fails far too often when sleying more than one thread to a dent. And sleying 2 or more to a dent is done very frequently.

Thu, 04/14/2016 - 18:56

woolybat

Yes...I was warping front to back.  I haven't tried back to front yet-- I was figuring I should master one way before trying another one!  Is there anyway I can fix this so the warp is workable?  

Thu, 04/14/2016 - 19:39

Sara von Tresckow

Just keep weaving carefully and things should be better after wet finishing, when you handwash the piece, the threads should lie bettere or you can manipulate them slightly by hand.

Now that you know how (not) well front to back works, let it go and learn to warp the loom in a way that will always give good results. In other parts of the worls, what goes as "back to front" is simply known as "warping the loom". Everyone thinks by skipping a simple raddle that they are saving gobs of time or something when they are really setting themselves up for the type of out of sequence threads or worse as you have found out.

Thu, 04/14/2016 - 19:51

Erica J

What loom are you using?

How is it threaded and what twill,are you trying to weave?

Fri, 04/15/2016 - 11:27

woolybat

I'm using a 4-harness table loom (Dorothy Leclerc).  I'm weaving a mini twill sampler gamp, so the threading changes for each color stripe in the warp.  The sections where the twisting occurs are in the point draw areas (one of these is a point draw extending over 8 ends, the other over 6).  I can send the draft if that would be helpful.

Do you have any idea if this problem isolated to the immidiate weaving area?  Or do the twists extend throughout the entire warp?  It almost looks like I could scrap this bottom section and restart the weaving up higher, and have it be fine.  I don't want to do that if the twists keep coming back, though.

Fri, 04/15/2016 - 11:45

woolybat

I think what I might have to do is cut off the small section that I have woven (it's only about an inch high), untangle all the crossed threads, and then retie to the front apron rod...does that sound like a plausible solution?

Fri, 04/15/2016 - 12:39

Erica J

Did you start with a plain weave header? I can't remember ever having this problem before. I think a plain weave header would straigthen out the twists and keep them out of the weaving zone.

Fri, 04/15/2016 - 12:44

SusanBH

make sure you release the warp tension first, and give yourself plenty of space in front of the reed so the warp doesn't spring back through the reed and heddles forcing you to rethread and resley.  Ask me how I know.

Fri, 04/15/2016 - 13:23

woolybat

I did weave about a 1/2 inch of plain weave, and then about the same length of basket.  It wasn't until I started doing the twill that the twists showed themselves!  Everything seemed to be in line before then, which is why I had no idea anything was twisted.  I would have fixed it way before if I had known!  I've been trying to search the internet for similar problems, and the closest looking thing I've found is having crossed threads in the shed.  I'm puzzled though because it seems like this problem can be noticed right away when weaving, and is easily fixed right at the beginning.  I can't imagine why nothing showed up until I had already woven a length.  

Thanks for the warp tension reminder!! If I forgot about that I would have a waaaaay bigger problem on my hands :)

Sat, 04/16/2016 - 15:26

WeaverGrace

Hi Sara! I am fascinated by your comment about back to front vs. front to back. I am noticing that I am a rare breed that learned to dress a loom from front to back.

I have been threading my looms front to back for nearly every project for over 40 years. The few times when I threaded back to front, I had problems:

the bunches of threads in the raddle wound on in bunches instead of side-by-side

I released the tension on my carefully- and tightly-wound warp, so I could thread the loom, and as the loom sat, the tension went haywire

as I threaded, I pulled on ends that threw my tension off

How do you address these situations?

Thanks,
Grace

Sat, 04/16/2016 - 15:43

Sara von Tresckow

When winding on, the raddle first divides the threads into bunches and then the cross passes over the lease sticks, spreading the threads evenly across the reeded width. Both raddle AND lease sticks are needed in the winding process.

Basically, put the tieon stick through the warp loops. Enter the lease sticks in the cross and secure the lease sticks to the sides of the loom. From the lease sticks (in a position so the raddle is prior to the lease sticks - possibly on the breast beam or castle - put your groups in the raddle. Secure and cover your raddle. Now, with tension applied to the warp chain during the entire process (if you stop, wrap the chain around the breast beam), pull the warp onto the warp beam. The raddle "presorts" the threads into manageable groups and the lease sticks refine that separation. And try to warp finer threads 2 x 2 - they pass through the raddle and sticks with less friction than a single thread cross.

Once the warp is tensioned on the beam, nothing can happen to it during the sleying process. Not really rocket science.

Have no clue how you got your twisting - in 40 years, has never happened - and I started with "Big Book of Weaving", German edition on the bed as I did my first warp.

Sat, 04/16/2016 - 15:57

Lauriebm

I am tying the back to front for the first time after sing a new loom that came with a wonderful video of the process.  However, the problems have been many:

1) I had an odd number of ends in each color with m changes.  I suppose I should have tied the thread ends together as I changed color but I left them dangle.  So, I didn't have a continuous warp to slip my apron rod through as was demonstrated in the video.  I had loose threads that I had to go back and tie together.  It was a mess with a large number of ends and bad eyesight!

2) the dents in my raddle weren't deep enough to accommodate the number of threads needed if I was going to keep it the same width as the warp.  I ended  with crossed threads as shown in the picture woolybat submitted.

3) I followed the video instructions of threading my texsolv heddles and tying them in small bunches as I went along.  Even so, I have such a mess of threads dangling from my heddles I think I will cut the project off :(. And never try back to front again.  I never had these problems before!

sorry for this long message.  I expected to love my new loom but wonder if I will go  to my 4 harness instead.

Thanks for letting me vent!  I welcome suggestions, lancia

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sat, 04/16/2016 - 19:46

WeaverGrace

woolybat, would you be willing to post another photo? This time, including the plain weave where the weaving was great, and where the twisting began. I've been staring at your photo, and feeling as puzzled as you.

However, I do know what you mean about the difficulty of reading the cross after sleying. You gave me the idea to transfer the cross to between the reed and harnesses. I'm in the middle of threading my loom now, and will try that. Thanks for sharing your challenge!

Sat, 04/16/2016 - 20:08

Sara von Tresckow

Couple of things. Don't know which video you are using, but you should really make an effort to have even loops at the end of your warp where you put the tieon stick in. Even with odd numbers of threads in stripes, takikng the time to break and tie evenly at the end of the cross is worth its weight in gold.

You don't mention lease sticks and the cross. That is quite important. You cannot warp back to front without having that cross. If your lease sticks had been in place in back of the raddle, threads CANNOT cross winding on the beam. You then thread from those lease sticks and keep the same order as your cross - the same order as you made your chain. Any directions that claim to be back to front without lease sticks are truly not worth following.

Raddles should be generous enough to hold the threads in your warp, the exception could be the ones on Louet looms if using very coarse threads. If that isn't working, make a simple stick and nails raddle and secure the threads with rubber bands or string on the top.

Depending on your loom type, I can guarantee success if you use:

A. Counterbalance/countermarche loom - "Big Book of Weaving" Laila Lundell

B. Jack loom - "Learn to Weave" Anne Field

I have the feeling that there are less than professional materials out there that are perhaps not worth using.

Sat, 04/16/2016 - 20:11

Joanne Hall

Any time one learns something new, it is best to give yourself a break and keep it fairly simple, not making it something that goes beyond the instructions you are following.  You can work those details out when you are more accustomed to the method.  And give yourself a couple times trying the new to you method, so that you will be more successful.

Remember that back to front warping is what is done in Scandinavia and Europe now and in the past.  Front to back warping was created in the last 50 or 60 years. 

Joanne

Sun, 04/17/2016 - 07:03

Yvonne K

I have been warping from the back now for many years.  I found it easier to warp from the front when I was a beginner, but once I learned to warp from the back in a disciplined fashion, I have had successful warps ever since. Find some detailed instructions and follow them carefully.

Beginner weavers need to persevere, remembering that warping the loom is half of your weaving. Its a process you need to embrace - as someone once said, "you have to be warped to weave."

there are

Sun, 04/17/2016 - 14:58

Artistry

Sara's instructions are excellent. I have been weaving for many decades and know both ways of warping and decidedly believe that for me , back to front is the easiest and less trouble free way to go. When I taught, it was the method I taught, students had little trouble with it. 

Probably your trouble started with the multiple colored warp and as Sara explained not tying the ends together equaly.

please know all of us as beginners, I'm sure , have had problems at our looms! Their is a lot to absorb! Once you gather more of an understanding of how your loom works and how weaving works dressing the loom will settle down. 

the best advice I can give you is to plan simple projects scarves and tea towels are great! Plus get  warp after warp on your loom !

you'll get through this, take your time, and know I've certainly been somewhere like where you are now, and survived:)

Cathie

Mon, 04/18/2016 - 15:21

weavinupnorth

Your answers on this subject are golden Sara; I have bookmarked them! I just finished my first set of tea towels on my new Jane 70 Louet loom. I found Jane Stafford's DVD fabulous. I still had challenges as Joan said us beginners are learning something new. I kept going and with help from 2 weaving friends got it done. I found getting the correct tension when tying onto the front rod challenging though. Had 1 broken warp thread and 1/2 way across 480 threads instead of threading shafts 4321 did a oops at 2121 which I later discovered so I made 2 emergency heddles out of string to get back the correct sequence. I found these heddles didn't go down in the shed sometimes causing a skipped thread but corrected it as I went along. Now the tea towels are off the loom and I see 2 skipped threads I missed. Sigh. They were warm water  washed and dried on delicate now ready for hemming! I am very pleased and I sure learned a lot from these humble little tea towels! Thanks for all those who help us beginners learn. 

P. S. I warped back to front & will continue to do so!

Mon, 04/18/2016 - 17:02

sally orgren

I warp back-to-front, and I have had the same problem with warp threads twisting occasionally when a group of them are treadled in the same way for a long time.


If you beam with tension on your warp at all times, even during breaks, it will prevent some threads from being ever-so-looser than others. Also, perhaps tightening the tension while weaving will align these warps. If it happens on just one side, your loom might not be squared. On a folding loom it happened to me, because the break-side of the loom shortened up - ever so slightly.


When you see it happen, you can take a smooth stick with a beveled edge (a "weaving sword") and insert that into the shed, realigning these warps before continuing. I also might use a straight pin to realign the warps before proceeding.


Another solution: use sewing thread and throw a "tabby" pick every 1-2" that will be removed when the project is off-loom, before washing, to keep those warp threads from migrating within their channel. If the sett is correct, they should be fine off loom and especially after wet-finishing.


If you know you are going to be doing a lot of this type of treadling with grouped warps: set those grouped warps closer together than the rest of the warp.


Since industry also uses back-to-front, a quick visit to Pier One will reveal that their textiles may show this same characteristic. Eventually, the warp returns to the correct parallel path – and they don't bother to fix it. Unless you are looking for it, most might not really notice it.



On a recent project of mine, the center thread was a different color, so when it twisted, it was quite noticeable. I was treadling the same way for about 20" on each towel.

Below is the solution for the first few towels using sewing thread. It was much faster than trying to nudge the errant warp thread back into position. To see the finished towels: http://weavolution.com/project/sally-orgren/blue-towels.

 

Mon, 04/18/2016 - 17:14

woolybat

Hi,

I'll definitely be trying out warping from back to front next time around.  I have been working from Deborah Chandler's Learning to Weave, and she has a section devoted to back to front warping.  Meanwhile, I would love to try to save this warp so that it is somewhat workable.  WeaverGrace, here's another picture to show the whole weaving so far:

 

Thanks for all your help advice and support!  Even though these problems can be a pain, I don't mind too much because I know their all steps in the learning process!  I'll just be bummed if I can get this warp to weave out :(

Mon, 04/18/2016 - 18:34

woolybat

Hi Sally, 

Thanks for your suggestions!  They could be very helpful in working with this warp.  I'm curious-  did your misaligning warp threads actually twist around each over (so they look like a corkscrew)?  

Mon, 04/18/2016 - 18:49

Sara von Tresckow

Do look at the "Learn to Weave" by Anne Field. It is much newer than the Chandler and is well thought through. I have used the method recently advising workshop students and it was easy and successful.

Mon, 04/18/2016 - 18:55

woolybat

I'll have to look into that, thank you!  I'm using a table loom-- does it cover the process for one of those, or does the same process pretty much apply for any loom?

Mon, 04/18/2016 - 20:28

kerstinfroberg

maybe it is because I so seldom use a table loom, but why would warping one of those differ (in principle, of course) from warping a floor loom?

Actually, I did not own a table loom until I had been a weaver for 25+ years, when I acquired a Lillstina TL (thought it was a" good deal"). If I was asked about "warping" (assuming warping consists of a) beaming b) threading and c) sleying), I would say beaming is no problem, threading is a PITA (mostly 'cos it is near to impossible to change heddles between shafts), sleying (and the rest of it all) is def NO problem.

So... (just talking from experience here) why would a table loom need a different procedure to make ready for weaving, than would a (any? only some?) floor loom?

Mon, 04/18/2016 - 22:18

sally orgren

more like they migrated out of order within their confined space.

 

Are you sure the shuttle isn't dragging them to one side, appearing as if they are twisting around their buddies? If they truly are twisting around each other (in a corkscrew that cannot be untwisted), then that is an inaccuracy in the threading method, and I am not sure you could continue weaving very far as the threads would bind up pretty quickly. You would need to cut off and re-thread, making the sure each warp is following a straight line from the back warp beam, through heddle and dent, to the cloth beam in front.

 

The migration problem has nothing to do with table or floor looms – I have had it happen on both types.

 

I think the migration has to do with the fact that some of the warps aren't under the same tension as their buddies to stay in their path. If they don't have as many weft interlacements as their neighbors, their take-up will be less, causing them to eventually be slightly longer and thereby looser.

 

Regardless the reason – YES – it is frustrating when it happens!

 

 

Mon, 04/18/2016 - 22:32

sally orgren

Looking more carefully at the new photo you posted, I would be inclined to test the threading.

If you had a 1:1 threading cross and the lease sticks are still in (or, if you can reintroduce them behind the heddles at the back of the loom by treadling plain weave), you could bring the cross forward (transfer the cross) to the front of the loom. If those threads are twisted between the reed and heddles at the cross, that is affirmation you need to cut off and rethread.

I hope that makes sense.

You need to test the path of the warps from the back of the loom to the front.

Tue, 04/19/2016 - 11:32

woolybat

Hi everyone,

From all this discussion, I'm sure it is a threading problem.  The threads are corkscrewed around each other and cannot be untwisted.  I think what happened is that I was warping front to back, and since my sley is double, some of the threads went into adjacent, incorrect heddles when threading...it was difficult (if not impossible) to tell which one went where, since there was more than one per dent!  I've never learned to use lease sticks.  Maybe this is a big part of my problem!!  I've been teaching myslef out of Deborah Chandler's "Learning to Weave," and her first, most basic method for learning to warp doesn't use them...so unfortunately I'm having a difficult time picturing what you're describing. I wanted to try to master one warping technique before moving on, but maybe with an ambitious set up like this one (with the stripes and crazy threading) I would be better off with a different warping method.  

Yesterday, I observed the problem more closely and the twist appeared to be very isolated.  I wove a few more picks in the hopes of securing the threads in their new orientation (on the right side of the photo at the start of the green stripe).  My plan was to leave a small section of warp unwoven, and then restart my pattern with the threads adjusted to their new position.  However, now that I read Sally's last post, I'm wondering if I should back up...It sounds like these threads may bind up again, or (this is just me thinking, looking at this new picture) the warp threads with the twist will be slightly shorter, so they'll tighten up as I weave.  

Eeek!! What are your thoughts??  Oh, the troubles of being a newbie!

Close Up Warp Twist

Sun, 04/24/2016 - 14:18

Artistry

Are your threads going evenly and smoothly over the back beam? Or are there twists there too?

when you lose a cross you can sometimes save it by , without disturbing the warp at all, putting a piece of masking tape ( painters tape)over the full width of the warp, if they lay smoothly, and carefully taking one thread out at time and threading it through a heddle of your pattern  and so on. In this case , the masking tape over the back beam.

However, Sally's way of treadling plain weave is the way to get the cross back in, if you can. Definitely try that first!

Cathie