Authentic way of weaving Rosepath

Now this must really be a beginner question. Here is the harness pattern: 1-2,  2-3,  3-4  ,3-4,  2-3,  1-2,  1-4,  1-4  repeat.    So, what holds the weft in the warp if you repeat a shed as in 3-4,  3-4  or  1-4,  1-4?  Is the answer, nothing?  

Comments

Fri, 08/23/2013 - 23:19

Jan Bogue

I know there are all kinds of weaving design computers programs.  I know there are several notation designs.  This WeaveDesign program is free and it allows me to share what I am trying to accomplish.  Like the yarn gauage sizes the notation styles make me crazy.  So, here is my first try at some type of Rose Path, I think.  I have weaved about one inch of material, and the pattern appears to match the computer program printout.  I mounted the printout on a small piece of press board and tried to use a push pin to keep from getting all the pedals mixed up. But, and here is my question: Are there any slick tricks for remembering the sequence?  I know what happens when you miss pedal and have to back track. Thanks for the previous help getting this far. Jan

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 08:03

ReedGuy

For a discussion about and a number of rosepath patterns you can check out Ed Worst's 'Foot Powered Loom Weaving' on pages 49-54. He uses a single set of lamms on a 4 shaft counterbalance, so two treadles are used at a time to get the shed. Keep in mind this is a 100 year old text. He uses terms like pattern thread and binder thread (weft) and uses two shuttles. The pattern is colored and the binder is white.

Do a search on http://www.archive.org for the book.

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 07:36

laurafry

You can use a push pin, or if you have a magnet board you can mount the draft to that and then slide a long thin magnet along as a place keeper.

Eventually you will learn how the pattern flows.  It's like choreography.  I know my twill, plain weave, Wall of Troy, broken twill dances.  :)

cheers,

Laura

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 07:48

ReedGuy

All I ever do is just tape the draft to the castle, by the time I make the first loom advance my feet know where to land. :)

I have treadled some complicated twills a few times. ;)

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 15:23

RepWeaver (not verified)

When weaving complicated treading patterns I use sewing thread to mark strategic spots as I weave. I take a length of contrasting thread about 8" long and tuck it under a few warp ends on either side of center. That way it lays atop the cloth and marks the first pick and the beginning of the sequence. When the repeat ends I tuck another length of thread under the first pick of the next repeat. Then when the second repeat ends, you can pull the first thread out and reuse it. In more complicated drafts I color code my thread to key spots in the treadling draft. When the treadling sequence is very long I draw colored lines on my draft to match the spots where I place the same color of thread. As I weave I pull the previously used threads out and leap frog them forward to the fell as I weave. Hope this makes sense to you. Marking progress this way has kept me on track countless times when I am interrupted or am distracted at the loom. RepWeaver
Sat, 08/24/2013 - 17:52

Kade1301

in the sequence isn't so difficult once you've learned to read your fabric. I'd try to remember this pattern as: left to right to left, then one right, left to right to left, one right, and so on... And I'd try to stop always at the same place - after or just before the one right treadle.

To answer your very first question: A pattern like that, with repeating sheds, (which is not the one shown in the picture) would need a floating selvedge. With a floating selvedge you can repeat sheds as often as you like (I'm not saying that endless repeats will give a stable fabric ;) )

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 17:52

TinaHilton (not verified)

I actually enter the treadle numbers into a spreadsheet.  I try to keep them to 5 or 6 on a line and it helps if there's a bit of a rhythm to it when I say it in my head.  I put this on a clipboard that typists used -- it has a clear bar that can be moved up and down and I move that after finishing each treadling sequence.  Let me know if you want more of an explanation.  I can probably take a picture of it.

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 17:56

kerstinfroberg

When I look at those pages in Worst, I see a loom without lams?

If you instead look at figure 74, on page 56, there are lams (albeit spelled lambs). In that figure, all treadles are tied to two shafts (albeit called heddle sticks).

 

- an old Swedish trick from "before the lams" (but I suspect it has been in use all over the world...) was to gather all (one, two or three) treadle cords from all shafts through a ring (often, says Grenande-Nyberg, a piece of cow's horn).

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 18:05

ReedGuy

Figure 74, on page 52 Kerstin. Not the Adobe Reader page 52, but the book page. You will see 6 treadles, 4 shafts and 4 lamms. Page 53 is a description, definitely there are lamms. ;)

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 21:29

Jan Bogue

Laura wrote:  It's like choreography.  I know my twill, plain weave, Wall of Troy, broken twill dances.  :) Ok, I will break the sequence up into a rhymic step pattern. :)

ReedGuy wrote: tape the draft to the castle,   Done, draft on castle.

RepWeaver wrote: I use sewing thread to mark strategic spots  Ok, this sounds like a good idea. I will put it in my bag of tricks. 

Kaydee wrote: left to right to left, then one right, left to right to left, one right, Ok, left and right. I like this along with rhythm and dance step.

TinaHilton wrote: it helps if there's a bit of a rhythm to it when I say it in my head.  Spread sheet and clip board along with rhythm.  I like that. 

Thanks to all. This should get me on the right pedal.  :) 

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 21:33

kerstinfroberg

OK, I see there are at least 3 different Foot-power... on that site (which in this instant is down for maintenance, which is why I only have checked two of them).

I also see that in one of them your page refs are correct. However, on looking at fig 74 (whichever page that is on), one can see a cb loom with lamms (or lams, or lambs), where each treadle has two shafts (or heddle sticks, or wings, or...) tied to it. When reading the text on (the "portrait" edition copyrighted 1918 and 1920) page 53, he points out that when using lambs there is no need for both feet.

treadle tie-up with lambs

text about lambs

So, yes, you are right - on page 53 there is a description of how to use "lambs" to avoid using both feet.

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 22:04

ReedGuy

Yes, thanks for pointing it out. You are right of course. But in the text before that point, it was explaining using two feet. So that kind of sticks in your mind until you read on about the use of lamms. :) It makes sense that the lamms will allow more than one shaft per treadle. Otherwise, why bother? :)

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 00:27

Jan Bogue

As I mentioned earlier this is the first time with fine thread.  I had time this morning, so I made a smaller temple. I wanted to see what all the temple talk was about, but I didn't want to spend 50 bucks.  I was worried about the selvedges, but then I remember why my teacher above takes the shuttle far out to the left and the right.  I might get by without a temple. Anyway, I did ok for a few picks, and then as you can see I got distracted and lost my place. I was thinking about handling the shuttle and the phone rang.  No problem. I will try again.  Perfect practice makes perfect. :) Thanks for your help. I will be dancing on the pedals in no time.  Well, maybe not that soon. :)

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 01:06

ReedGuy

Worst's book also has temple plans, I made a temple using them. But yours looks like it works just as well. ;)

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 01:36

Joanne Hall

but then I remember why my teacher above takes the shuttle far out to the left and the right.

Hi Jan,

Does your teacher use plastic bobbins?  That is usually the reason for taking the shuttle far out on each side.  The plastic bobbins create more drag than the traditional quills, so there is more draw-in when using plastic bobbins. 

Joanne

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 02:57

janenedriscoll

To keep track of your place you can use a magnet board, and move the magnet down each row (I find one of those metal lids from cookie boxes work well.) It helps if you tape the print out to the metal lid so the paper doesn't move. I see that your pattern repeats in a sequence of 8. I some times make a hand written notation next to the treading pattern numbering them from 1 to 8 (using the numbers to represent an ordinal sequence (1st-8th). In your pattern, both a 1 (first pick) and a 5 (fifth pick) would lift shafts 3&4. When you are treadling 2 (second pick) and 8 (eighth pick) would lift 2&3. That way I count 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 to help me keep my place and refer to the print out to know what each pick needs to lift. If you like iPad apps, iWeaveIt will help you keep track both in the threading and treadling with just a touch of your iPad or iPhone. Janene
Sun, 08/25/2013 - 03:59

Jan Bogue

Yup, the plastic bobbins cause extra drag. That is what I noticed, so by going way out first I did away with the bobbin drag.  I have the other type of shuttle and I will try it next.  

"I count 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 to help me keep my place"  I will try this approach too.  Good idea. 

Thanks Joanne and Janene :)

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 08:36

ReedGuy

What I do on my drafts is highlight the block of the treadle sequence for each block of the pattern repeat. I do lots of twills that could have 60 treadle presses to complete a block for instance. But, then if your headers are a different pattern at the begining and end, just mark those out separate. I just draw pencil lines across the treadle sequence. If you get distracted by the phone, kids, dogs.... you should be able to look at the draft and the woven fabric to see where you left off to find the last pic after some weaving practice.

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 16:50

Jan Bogue

ReedGuy

I will highlight the block.  123   414  32123  414

Thanks

Thu, 08/29/2013 - 02:14

Jan Bogue

I bought this old shuttle simply for the reason that I had to figure out if end feed shuttles really have a tension adjustment.  Leclerc sells a professional end feed for $ 175.00. They say it adjusts. Does someone own one of these fancy expensive shuttles, and have they figured out the adjustment device. The delivery bronze casting looks similar to the one I bought.  I took the one I bought apart to see if there is an adjustment device.  Can't find one. I am thinking that they once made a different shuttle for each thread size and numbered the shuttle so you knew which one provided the proper tension.  So what changes from shuttle to shuttle. Some hole size????  There is a little red felt insert at the beginning of the bronze casting just after the end of the prin. Could this provide tension?  On either side of the prin there is a long piece of mouse fur. Would this be considered a tension device. Shuttle building must have been hard on rodents.  If someone out there knows the history of shuttles please help solve the mystery.  Thanks, Jan 

Thu, 08/29/2013 - 02:32

Joanne Hall

Hi Jan,

You may be right about factory shuttles being made for the purpose intended.  That would make sense in a factory.  These factory shuttles are usually too bulky and heavy to throw by hand.

I have a Leclerc fly shuttle on a 100 inch loom from the late 70s.  Since the loom is so wide, I never felt a need to tension the thread.  I just put the thread through the hole in the front of the shuttle and it worked perfectly.  There is one other hole, but I never used it.

I have been testing a hand end feed shuttle intended for hand weavers.  I had to open the tensioner completely open to weave.  So, essentially there is no extra tension added to the thread.  It did not work if I tensioned it, as the tensioner created too much drag on the thread.   I have tried different sizes of cotton and linen with this shuttle, which shall remain nameless. I am still testing it.

So, perhaps the tensioner is not as important as many weavers think. 

Joanne

Thu, 08/29/2013 - 05:10

Jan Bogue

"So, perhaps the tensioner is not as important as many weavers think."  Well, this is what I am wondering too.  The warp threads provide drag and that may be enough.  The smallest amount of drag coming out of the shuttle using fine thread in the warp and weft can sure start to pull the sides in.  Maybe it is all shuttle throwing technique.  I just don't know.  

Thu, 08/29/2013 - 07:34

ReedGuy

I made my own, it does adjust, but not the tension. It is designed to tighten/close the gap that holds the weft as a guide to deliver the weft 'securely' onto the shuttle exit. But as Joanne said you don't need tension on the yarn at all. The way it is wound on a a ribbed pirn in cone fashion is sufficient tension. I find it works great on my 60" loom for delivering weft. And it would not be for hand shuttling, it is bulky and heavier than a hand shuttle. I use my regular side feed shuttles I also made for narrow stuff or warps with 'testy' sheds, as it were. On double width weaving I would not use one, for instance. Or some 'busy' twills. ;)

Thu, 08/29/2013 - 09:22

Artistry

Ah, JoAnn I may have the same shuttles, yes plural! I'm so glad to hear someone else is still experimenting with them because so am I! Jan, my end feed shuttles Have a small hole which you put a Allen wrench in ( I think it's a Allen wrench, looks like a L) and give a very slight turn to adjust tension on the weft. I think I see a small whole on your shuttle. The tensioning device on mine our two small metal plates that the thread runs through. Watch those metal tips on the end of the shuttle. I believe that is made for a fly shuttle and believe me they can really chew up your fingers if you start throwing with any speed! Ouch!
Fri, 08/30/2013 - 20:29

sally orgren

I have a few AVL EFS shuttles with tensioning devices, and I DO keep one tensioned for 10/2 and finer. The other is sett for looser spun, bigger yarns, like Henry's Attic Monte Cristo or the Mission Falls 1824 yarns. The Honex system has two plates that can be widened or narrowed with a small allen type wrench. I can tell immediately when throwing if I put the wrong yarn into the EFS.

I have another AVL EFS which has a different type of system. Nope. That shuttle lives in the bench. And the ones where you have to come up with a path through metal loops, that's just too much work for me.

I find that the width you are throwing makes a difference, too. Too narrow of a warp, and I prefer the feel of a boat shuttle over the EFS.

Fri, 08/30/2013 - 20:55

ReedGuy

Yeah, mine also is just place the weft from above around the path, no threading required. I could put tenson on the yarn if needed, but never have had the need, except I guess an very slight tension on 16/2 cotton. I can tension it in two places. One in the middle section  and one at the exit. If there is much tension I find the selveges become ruffled, and without tension nice and even edges with 2-ply wool, and not even a loop at the edge. I am however looking at ways to improve delivery with tweeks here and there. Never really spent much time yet do this. :) I find that on the fly shuttle it's easier to get that weft angle your looking for, that also helps the edges.

It's there a song called 'Time' or something similar. :D