Hello everyone!

I am working on building my own countermarche loom with my father back in Pennsylvania when I head home for holidays. I was wondering if someone had a countermarche here in the Austin, TX area. I would like to see one work, maybe even weave a pick or two and take a measurement or two. I would also appreciate anyone  would could help me with loom building tips. I read the other threads and such about the few of you who have built a countermarche and was wondering if you had any tips or things you widh you had done differently.

 

Thanks in advance for your help! I am very excited to get started.

Comments

Thu, 07/09/2015 - 17:37

Joanne Hall

You are very  concerned about measurement, and so you should be.  One measurement even a little off can change the comfort or the ease of weaving.  I suggest you pick a loom you like and copy it, exactly as it is.

Joanne

 

Thu, 07/09/2015 - 17:44

rohdeg

Thanks, Joanne.

I'll have to look around for one. I never intended to copy one. Part of the fun was going to be trial and error, but I do see your point!

Thu, 07/09/2015 - 18:45

Joanne Hall

Put the fun part into decorative details.  And be sure to put your initials and the year on the loom when you are finished.

Thu, 07/09/2015 - 18:47

Joanne Hall

And if you need to make some changes that are your own, it is ok to make the loom taller.  It is also ok to make the loom deeper from breast beam to back beam.  Both of these improve a loom's comfort and function.

Joanne

Thu, 07/09/2015 - 18:54

rohdeg

Joanne,

Thanks again. I do intend to go taller. The breast beam is going to hit right at about 36" I belive. Length may not change given some space requirements but that would be nice. Anything I build will have a longer distance from front to back than what I currently have.

Since I am going with 16 shafts, I assume taller and deeper are always better to make sure there is room for the shafts and lamms. Taller also means the top and bottom lamms wont hit each other as well, right?

Thu, 07/09/2015 - 19:26

ReedGuy

Your shafts don't want to get too spread apart, so as to get a good shed. Using the back 8 becomes more restricted. 16 shafts is a lot of tying, but also gives more possibilities. I have 8 shafts, but am adding 2 more. I am also adding 4 treadles to the 10 I have. I want to be able to do a two tie weave and have 8 shafts for pattern. I think I would add 2-3" inches to the breast beam height. Mine is 39", which works well. My depth is 6' and I can take my bench inside to thread heddles. I have built 90% of everything I weave with.  Joanne has given me a few pointers. Others have also been helpful.

Good luck with your loom build. :)

Thu, 07/09/2015 - 19:42

rohdeg

Thanks for the tip, ReedGuy!

May I ask how tall you are? I am just worried to end up with a loom too tall and then not reach the treadles. How far off the floor are your treadles mounted at the back?

As far as the number of shafts. I want room for 16 shafts and I want to build it ready to hold the 16 shafts with the inten of installing them later. 8 is where I plan to start. I will also have 18 treadles but only install what I need at the beginning. This is such a work in progress...and I am currently only at the planning stage. You don't happen to have a drawing of your loom with measurements do you?

 

Thu, 07/09/2015 - 21:18

Kate in Scotland

Great idea! Sounds like a marvelous project. 

Thu, 07/09/2015 - 21:25

rohdeg

Thanks Kate! 

I am hoping it is great and that it is also successful! I am sure it will require lots tweaking.

Thu, 07/09/2015 - 23:58

ReedGuy

I'm 5'11". I use an adjustable bench, which rocks as you weave, that I made. Like a Standard Glimakra, there is a foot rest along the front. 36" is often recommened as the min height you should have. But with that extra tieup for 16 shafts 2-3" can make a difference.

 

I probably had a rough drawing at one time, but I don't have one at the moment. I always draw the concept for a project, but I don't usually do it precise. Just something to direct my efforts. ;)

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 00:00

sandra.eberhar…

My experience with trying to get looms that don't work to work (tweaking, I suppose) is that it can be extremely frustrating, and involve a lot of woodwork.  Joanne's suggestion of copying one you like is good.  I assume you want to do this because you want your own handmade creation.  If you are doing it to save money, you can get excellent used looms for less money than you will spend on wood.  The breast beam of my favorite loom is 41".  I am 5'4", and this loom fits me perfectly.

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 00:12

ReedGuy

Like bwsd has hinted to, height is good to have. If not high enough then your going to be blocking up that loom. ;)

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 00:13

rohdeg

The height sounds so important to comfort. I agree since my Mighty Wolf seems too low for me and I sometimes get frustrated feeling hunched over.

If I raise the breast beam does that mean I will have to raise the jacks at the top as well? I would think not as long as I had enough space for the shafts to rise...Its the lowering that gets you in trouble because of the lamms.

And I do want my own custom fit creation. Luckily the wood I have is birdseye or curly maple and it is already owned and so will not cost a thing. I certainly understand how doing something yourself often does not save money. I am a weaver. ;)

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 00:18

rohdeg

Also a 16 shaft cm seems hard to come by used. At least near by in central Texas!

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 01:30

Joanne Hall

What weaving width are you considering?

Joanne

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 01:37

rohdeg

I am looking to do at least 45 inches maybe a bit larger. I did not want to do a fly shuttle...that can be for a second loom.

 

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 15:19

Joanne Hall

You may find it hard to get 16 treadles in that width.  When you are making the loom, you might want to make some preliminary parts and try them out before making the final ones.  We did that when we designed the countermarch for the Julia loom, which has a weaving width of only 27 inches.  It took a couple sets before we got it right.  For this 45 inch weaving width, your treadles may need to be taller (thicker) than they are wide(the flat surface for your foot), in order to get the weight that you need.  And they will need to be attached at the back so that they will wobble a little to let your wider foot between them.

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 15:23

Joanne Hall

And you might want to evaluate your objective of having 16 shafts.  I have woven for over 40 years and I still do not have a project I want to weave that requires 16 shafts.

Joanne

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 16:53

rohdeg

Joanne,

Thanks for letting me know about the space problem. I might just go wider then! OR reevaluate my 16 shaft desire. I am just so enthralled with networked twills and smooth flowing curves and echo weaves that I hope to get to do them. 16 shafts seem to be where everything starts to have a fairly smooth edge and not look as blocky. 

My idea for fitting parts and making it work is going to be to build the frame and then start on lamm sizes and such, you know, the guts. When I can get one shaft to balance, I will use that as a template to start from for the rest.  I am sure I am going to have lots of trial and error until it works. but i am sure I can get to a working finished product.

Thanks so much for your input! Invaluable information.

 

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 17:11

Sara von Tresckow

By today's standards, 16 or more shafts on a manual countermarche loom is kind of outdated. The available dobby looms with virtual treadles have made weaving the kinds of patterns you desire no longer easily achievable on a 16 shaft/16 treadle loom. The available treadles on a dobby is the number of shafts squared minus 2. This massive amount of virtual treadles makes any dobby far more flexible than a loom with a fixed shaft/treadle count. No, you can't make a dobby easily - they are expensive - but that is what the weaving world is now using to get those fabrics pictured in books and magazines.

Computer assist with e-lift is also the only way to go any more. Mechanical dobbies require lots of lags and pins that are quite expensive and do not store the way computer files do. Unfortunately the way to designing your own interface is quite difficult - there are already three excellent countermarche dobby looms out there - Louet, LeClerc Weaverbird, and Toika (the simplest and the unit can be fitted to many standard sized countermarche loom frames).

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 17:17

rohdeg

So then 12 shafts are enough? There is most likely no way I will be getting a dobby. Weaving the 'old' way is the way I want to go. I need to push all those treadles! 

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 18:36

Sara von Tresckow

I'd recommend doing some serious reading before starting anything. In many places 2 shafts are quite enough if you add a "second or pattern harness" - I currently have a little Julia set up with a Laotian pattern weaving insert where the pattern rows are stored in a space saving vertical pattern storage unit and two shafts counterbalanced. I have two drawlooms with 8 or fewer shafts and two different types of draw harness for two types of patterning. A tapestry or Navajo loom doesn't even have shafts and treadles - but two sheds and lots of room for free form patterning.

8 shafts and 8 or 10 treadles is sufficient for most weavers for at least the first 5 years. The most pressing need will be to have a sturdy, well designed loom that works well - something difficult to achieve on a DIY basis as you have not yet worked with the forces involved in making textiles and the tools/functionality that are most convenient.

Once you have a good working loom, you'll need to gain experience in making many textiles to know where your next step takes you.

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 19:39

rohdeg

Thanks for the tips! I am still going to give it a go, though, since it is a joint project and all. My father enjoys this kind of stuff anf by hook or by crook he will make it work!

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 19:56

sandra.eberhar…

The difference between an 8 shaft and a 12 or 16 shaft in tie up and threading, particularly tie up, is very large.  And the larger bundle of sharts means you have to raise them by different amounts to get a clean shed.  I have a very finicky 12 shaft that I have succussfuly tied up once, and have been working on getting it working again for quite a while.  It has some problems.  After using a computer dobby 16 shaft loom, I would never want to own anything with more than 8 shafts that isn't computerized.  I suspect that if you build yourself a nice high 8 shaft countermarche loom with that gorgeous maple, you'll have a loom that's a joy to use.  If you make it deep enough, you can add shafts later. I use adjustable shop stools for most of my looms; that's how I get a high loom to fit.

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 20:12

rohdeg

I do think I am going to build it with 8 with room for 16 and have the extra shafts lying in wait. I like your adjustable shop stool idea. What kind do you use?

 

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 20:14

ReedGuy

Yes, woodworking can lead one to explore many ideas, including looms. :)

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 21:07

kerstinfroberg

"Outdated" or not - my first loom has 20 treadles. It had lots of different possibilities (I sometiem call it "incarnations") - I could assemble a 13-shaft CM from the "pile of sticks" I got, or an 8-shaft CB (dräll pulleys), or a 10-shaft CB (dräll pulleys, but different). Looking at the wood, I'd say that most of those "incarnations" were pretty old - .

I gave it yet another incarnation, by getting a vertical 16-sh CM. And guess what? I weave everything from 4-sh to 16-sh on it... (Also, being a dumb Swede, I don't really understand all the talk of "balancing". Myself, I evaluate *sheds*, not "passive" looks: it will yet have to happen that I try to throw a shuttle without first opening a shed. YMMV.)

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 21:43

rohdeg

What a great loom to have! I am hoping to eventually be able to do all that with what I manage to come up with. I am sure it will not have that many incarnations!

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 21:57

ReedGuy

Balancing involves the shed for sure, but also how much effort involved to open it. A shaft at rest that is a little lower than the rest of the shafts could be perfectly fine once a treadle is pressed and a shuttle can pass through. It's different on a countermarche vs a jack loom because all shafts move up or down. No shaft is static when a treadle is pressed except in a skeleton tie-up situation. But then, usually a second treadle controls the remaining shafts. Have used this in "pique" and "summer and winter" weave.

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 22:00

ReedGuy

My loom keeps growing, I suspect yours will to.

I've added sectional rakes and a second beam. I plan to add a slacker device for leno. And still planning on a draw bridge.

 

It's a disease you know. :D

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 22:15

rohdeg

Oh I do understand the disease. If I could have 100 looms I would...even though you cant use them all at the same time!

I am already planning a second warp beam. When it gets that far expect a note from me! I'll be picking your brain for sure. 

But...since you're here. Did you laminate any of your pieces for strength? Maple is quite strong as you know and it should be able to handle the stress for sure.

Sat, 07/11/2015 - 08:30

ReedGuy

No, you won't need to laminate anything. But your shafts, and lever parts should be sawed quarter wise so the rings are in the thickness direction for more stability as wood moisture changes.

Sun, 07/12/2015 - 21:05

sandra.eberhar…

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/153763/Shop-Stool-with-Adjustable-Height.aspx

Sun, 07/12/2015 - 21:11

sandra.eberhar…

One way that I justify owning a bunch of different looms (why I have to do this to a guy that has a garage full of fly rods, I don't know) is that weaving is a repetative motion activity.  All of my looms are different sizes, different types (2 jack, 2 CM, 2 CB) and they all take a differnt motion and different muscles to work.   Also, if you own multiple looms, you get a lot more practice winding a warp.

Sun, 07/12/2015 - 23:39

rohdeg

Yes, I will have a stool like that. Looks perfect to me. Does the seat tilt forward if you want it to?

I like the tactic you use to justify the multiple looms. It doesn't work with my partner though. I found the best tactic is to just come home with something and then make room. HA

Tue, 07/14/2015 - 21:57

rohdeg

Hello! I have a few more questions...

  1. Why is a glimakra back rest taller than the breast beam?
  2. What are the pros and cons of horizontal and vertical countermarches and are they enough to make me choose one over the other?
  3. Say your lamms are mounted on the right side of the loom. How much more effort is required to press the right most treadle versus the left most? (Qualitative description is fine here. no need to get out a measuring apparatus!)

Thanks for all your wonderful help and support.

Wed, 07/15/2015 - 00:38

Joanne Hall

The height of the back beam has created discussions before.  Peter Collingwood related one source where it was stated that the reed marks would be less with a higher back beam.  My theory is that the weaving is more comfortable.  It would be similar to working on a slated drafting table.

The treadling is not much different from the right treadle to the left.  However, if you make your treadles wide and spread them out, then yes, you would feel the difference.  You actually feel the shorter and longer distance that the treadle travels more than the effort needed.   But with any weaving width, the treadles should be close together for easy and fast treadling.  Then it is not a problem.

The horizontal and vertical countermarches both work very well.  The horizontal has fewer parts and is less expensive.  There is no problem with the cord coming down the center of the warp with the horizontal countermarch, as long as that cord goes down the center of the warp.  The vertical countermarch is required for adding a drawloom, only because of the physical limiations.  Some like the vertical, as the lower lamm cords go down the side of the loom and are easy to tie up.

Joanne

Wed, 07/15/2015 - 00:49

rohdeg

Thanks for such a great answer, Joanne!

Wed, 07/15/2015 - 02:23

Sara von Tresckow

The old "barn looms" often have a raised back beam - it aids in beating the fabric firmly.

Vertical countermarche is, to me, easier to balance and on fine fabrics, I never had real issued with the center cords, but it is just less fuss and bother without them.

Wed, 07/15/2015 - 04:15

sandra.eberhar…

The seat does not tip unless you tip the entire chair.  It does swivel.  It would be nice to  be  able to turn the swivel on an off, but not so.  It's sturdy, adjustable easily, and takes about 10 minutes to put together.  The seat is a hard plastic tractor style, and I usually perch on the front edge.

Wed, 07/15/2015 - 04:24

rohdeg

Sara,

So grateful for the input! so glad I understand why there is that difference on some looms.

Big White Sofa Dog,

I am going to check these out if I can find them in my local Woodcraft store.

Wed, 07/15/2015 - 19:01

ReedGuy

Or you could build a rocking bench, since your building the loom. :)

Wed, 07/15/2015 - 19:27

rohdeg

I sure could...Do you know of plans? I could go your route and design the bench too but I am not sure I will have the wherewithall to do that after the loom! HA

Wed, 07/15/2015 - 19:42

ReedGuy

I built one, but I never drew up plans. It's in the "home built equipment" group. I think there is a picture of the parts.

Thu, 07/16/2015 - 16:08

jander14indoor (not verified)

Slightly different experience on effort left to right treadles.  Not sure why since the whole point of a CM loom is balance.  And I hesitate to disagree with someone with far, FAR more experience than I like JoAnn.  But maybe I made a mistake and can do better next time...

On my 8 shaft/10 treadle Cranbrook I recently had a project where there was a very distinct difference.  So much so that I went back and retied up the loom in the opposite direction for the treadles.  

The pattern was summer and winter (listed under my projects), used all six available blocks and I had to use a skeleton tie-up and two foot the pattern shafts.  For such a tie up it was more logical to me (and seemed to match what the experts recommended) to have the two tabby shafts to one side and the pattern shafts to the other.  

I think I tied up the tabby to the leftmost treadles first (though I'm not sure now, my notes are 200 miles away) and it just did NOT work.  Effort was VERY high on the left treadles (shortest lamm distance to the pivot).  I retied the opposite way and the treadling evened out.  

I thought at the time the issue was with treadles that lifted the most shafts at once.  There was a tabby pick that lifted six shafts with one foot.  When I moved the tabbies to the right, it became manageable.  It left the most balanced treadles to the left and worst balanced to right.

I suspect this issue is unique to CM looms like the Cranbrook where the lams pivot on one side.  The left most treadle has far less mechanical advantage (by close to 3-1) being tied to the left of the lam close to the pivot than the right most treadle.  I can't see one with floating lamms having this problem.

 

Jeff Anderson

Livonia, MI

Thu, 07/16/2015 - 20:58

ReedGuy

I've used a skeleton tie-up on my CM for a pique weave. I had tabby on the right, then pattern, then wadding treadle, than two tie treadles to the left, which are tabby as well. I never found is difficult to weave. The pique warp was on a supplemental beam.

 

Thu, 07/16/2015 - 21:14

rohdeg

Beautiful!

I hope my loom turns out as nice and weaves as well. What is the width again?

Thu, 07/16/2015 - 21:19

ReedGuy

62" inside width. Thanks for the compliment. It is maple. Maple up this way, as in MI I suspect, will have different figuring to the wood. A little birds eye in places, some curly here and there. And then also the ray fleck. :)

Thu, 07/16/2015 - 21:18

rohdeg

How do the heads work on the second beam? do they really let you beam without packing? I was thinking of putting them on both beams...