Ch. 3 Satin/Sateen discussion

This is a bit early, but I know somd of you maybe working ahead already.


Posted on Sat, 02/28/2015 - 17:32

You are such a task-master!  I am still struggling to get through the twills and here you are making me feel guilty about satin - I feel like I am in school again and did not finish my homework.  LOL

Posted on Sat, 02/28/2015 - 17:50

Now, now no need to feel guilty. Though I'm surprised my teacher voice inadvertently came out over the innternet!

I should probably confess that I posted this early,  so I wouldn't forget abd leave anyone hanging.  I need at least tomorrow to finish my twill block sample and read Ch. 3. :)

Posted on Sat, 02/28/2015 - 20:37

My understanding so far is that satin is a warp-faced weave, and that it shows best with fine threads.  While I search my stash for something fine and with some sheen, what do you think about sett?  More densely sett than twill?  I am thinking this is where wrapping will be useful; a dense wrap is probably exacty what we need for the sett?  Your thoughts?

Posted on Sat, 02/28/2015 - 20:58

I literally just read the chapter and went to the section in the back on sett.

I believe the calculation for a 5 shaft satin is wraps per inch times five divided by 7. For this weave, I woukd guess you would want to start with the theoretical sett, then go to a closer sett to compare. Possibly a wider sett de p ending on the yarn. 

I think a 10/2 merceruzed cotton would work well. I'm going traditional with silk, but just because I have it on hand.

Posted on Sat, 02/28/2015 - 23:55

Going back to Chapter 2 for a moment, on page 59, looking at the draft (having already checked the erratas on Interweave) I see that what I think might be an error?  on the line for Shaft 3, in the 4th grouping of warp threads if doesn't seem to mirror the 2nd group of shafts.  Wondering if you all think this is an error also?  Since the loom is already tied-up for this draft (and because I think it looks really cool) I am going to make some dish towels.  I will include the second thread for the 3rd shaft in the 4th groupings because I do think it is an error.  Thanks for anyone's input.



Posted on Sun, 03/01/2015 - 02:28

It does look like an error to me, if you want both sides of the curve to be a mirror of each other.  There are a couple of typos on the draft as well.  I do not know just how much of an impact having (2) ends on the third shaft vs just one.

Posted on Sun, 03/01/2015 - 02:37

Thank you for your input.  I removed some threads and added the extra heddles on shaft 3 and am now threading.  Thought the repeat at 39 threads was odd, now 40 makes more sense.



Posted on Sun, 03/01/2015 - 02:42

Tying 8 shafts on a countermarche takes a lot of time, so finish some towels for myself and a friend and then back to the book.  And, I am not all that thrilled with the satin--maybe some other time.  I will reparticipate on chapter 4.  If I get all the towels done before the end of the month, will do just a satin sampler instead of an entire article.  Love this group!



Posted on Sun, 03/01/2015 - 07:40

I am really getting into these samples. I love the samlles I've done so far and can't wait to have a large collection of samples like my weaving mentor!

I also came up woth a cool idea for my twill block treadling. I'm going to use 5 numbers from the Fibonacci sequence for the  number of how many repeats in the  treadling,and the move number 2 to rearrange the sequence into something more interesting!

Posted on Mon, 03/02/2015 - 01:02

Okay, I have the threads in the heddles (draft on page 59) and was trying to understand Appendix C for the sett  When I use the formula, I arrive at something a little over 19, which is not what is typical for twill with 22/2 cottolin (26 to 30).  I planned on using a 27 sett, but thought I need to learn how to figure out setts myself so attempted to figure it out.  Most of the calculations were easy to arrive at, but the "I", which I think I am not understanding correctly.


The draft has a 40 thread repeat (with the corrected thread on shaft 3 for the mirror image), the WPI is 34 and I calculated "I" at 30.  So using the formula s=(txr)/(I+R)  or 34x40=1360/30+40=70 (1360/70=19.4285714...)  What am I doing wrong?????


Or maybe my wpi is wrong - I took it off the internet because I coun't find my ruler.  Guess I better start looking.



Posted on Sat, 03/07/2015 - 15:49


My apologies for not having the time to respond sooner. Have you figured this out yet? 

I got my planned block twill sam p le done. It is full of good information,  but will bot do for my Certificate samples. I will weave 1 more block twill before resleighing for satin.

Posted on Sun, 03/08/2015 - 16:21

Well I seem to have made peace with hemstitching! It is one of those thungs I have long struggled with, but after having hemstitched my first block twill sample and the first part of the next it all seems to have clicked! :)

Posted on Sun, 03/08/2015 - 16:31


I finally had a chance to pullout the book. I believe I for the draft pn pg. 59 is 4. I is tge number of times the weft goes from one side of the cloth the other. So you want to look at the tie up. Does that help?

Posted on Sun, 03/15/2015 - 16:44

I realised that going from my 8 shaft twill block to an 8 shaft satin would actually only require rethreading every other block, which is awesome! I have rethreaded 3/5ths of the warp today! So I should finish at least 1 satin sample thus month! 

How is everyone else coming along?

Posted on Wed, 03/18/2015 - 12:47

I woke up at 5:30 this morning and decided I might as well get up and tackle the skipped dents I thought I had in my satin warp. Well either the weaving elves came, or I was really tired when I thought I saw them there on Sunday, because they were not there this morning! Hurrah!

This meant I was able to get a bit of weaving in this morning. I thought I'd use the tip I saw from Kerstin and Tien, here on Weavolution, and weave with the satin up for the header, then switch to weaving sateen, that way when I do the final hem the hem will actually match the fabric! Aha moment number 1!

I had decided on a move number of 5 and I'm weaving on a table loom, so I have to count over 5 each time. Well right as I was thinking man, I should have chosen a move number of three, I realized that on 8 shafts a move of 5 to the left is the exact same as 3 to the right, so really the move numbers 5 and 3 are the same! Sharon Alderman probabl wrote this in Mastering Weave Structures, but I must have missed it in my read through! Oh well, I'll remember it now!

How is everyone else doing with their satin/sateens?!

Posted on Sat, 03/28/2015 - 19:46

I did not resley my 8-shaft twill warp, and wove off two short samples, and used a move number of 3 and a move number of 5.  I was a bit disappointed - you can really see a diagonal, and I hope to revisit this structure in the future - with a denser warp.  The top photo shows it before being washed.satin_prewashI finished it by zig-zagging the cut ends and then tossing it into the wash with my laundry (and then the dryer).  I was shocked by how much it curled, and you might be amused to see what I had to do to get a photo!  First the front, and then the back.

satin sample, after washing

satin sample, post wash

Posted on Sat, 03/28/2015 - 20:58

I'm glad I'm not the only one. I noticed my 8 shaft satin has a diagonal as well. it looks like I should have gone for more than 8 shafts, or only 5? Hmm...

Posted on Sat, 03/28/2015 - 22:38

I agree - the book did show that some shaft numbers were apparently more useful.  I also thought that if I had a denser sett, it might have looked better. 

I've always dismissed satin/sateen as boring.  I'm not sure that my opinion has changed, but I do see it has an important place.  For a fabric that features warp yarn, it would allow that yarn to shine.  I am glad to have tried a bit, but am of course embarassed that it was so little.

Now the next chapter - that excites me.

Posted on Sun, 03/29/2015 - 14:12

Yes I think waffle weave will be my first time using 16 shafts. I have been winding an organic cotton warp, I had intended tO use for samitum, but the cotton is to yummy to cover up! ;)

Posted on Mon, 04/06/2015 - 21:46

A couple weeks ago, I posed a question in the monthly check-in thread, asking why I am wrong when think it is boring. I want to keep the replies here so its easier to understand. 

From Cathie: 

Why is satin /sateen not a boring weVe structure? Personally, I think,
there is no other structure that can carry color the way satin does.
Painted warps are sensational in are stripes. Also don't always
think sheen, if you have a yarn you really want to show off , even a
boucle!, the binding structure is such that the opposite element does
not interfere. If I were doing a boucle, I would set up something else
for warp, and use the boucle for warp sateen.
I think the reall attraction comes( at least for me) is when you can
start to do blocks , 10,15,20 shafts and color are magnificent. That is
using a 5shaft satin. I spent years studying color and satin blocks ,
the possibilities are endless!

and from Tien:

Satin/sateen doesn't (IMO) get really interesting until you have a
dobby loom. Then it gets really interesting...because you can go
gradually from a 1/4 satin to a 2/3 satin, then 3/2, and 4/1 - giving
you four shades of a color blend. If you have ten shafts and a dobby
loom, you can do two blocks of gradually shading colors. That is quite
interesting IMO!

At the lots-of-shafts extreme, many jacquard weavers use satins as
the base for weaving pictures. The nice thing about satins in that
regard is that they don't introduce a design line of their own - while
there is a very faint diagonal line in the stitchers, it's much less
pronounced than twill. So when you want a chunk of a color without a
distracting woven pattern, satin is the way to go.

I think satin is a pretty interesting weave structure, but on eight
shafts or fewer 4-shaft broken twill is better, because you can get two
blocks. You don't have as many options for shading, but you do get more
pattern possibilities. 4-shaft broken twill is almost-like-satin but not

So...I think satin is rich in possibilities, but you get a lot more options with it the more shafts you have.

Posted on Tue, 04/07/2015 - 22:51

Finally found these photos of an Altar Cloth I did with a painted warp in Satin. Everything could be done with 5 shafts except the cross where you need 15. I used silk single, plied silk and merino 50% & silk50%, in equal amts. for the warp. Used the merino/silk for the weft. It is lined since that is what the church wanted. It was heavy but very drapable. So you can see Satin in Color!

Altar Cloth Painted Warp Satin

Altar Cloth Painted Warp Satin Draped

Posted on Wed, 04/08/2015 - 04:23

Now I get it - really no distraction from the weft at all.  That warp is amazing.  Thank you so much for posting this.

Posted on Fri, 04/10/2015 - 04:05

and here's another example of using satin to show off colors...if you flip thru the photos you'll see a comparison of movement and just staying with a simple structure.  I also liked the combo of flipping satin and sateen in the threading combined with plain weave and the color variations were fascinating...

Posted on Fri, 04/10/2015 - 10:47

Just beautiful projects Deb! The curving is amazing !

Satin is highly underrated, I think, and the possibilities for "flipping " blocks( as you mentioned Deb) with the use of color is exciting.