Warping Back to Front - HELP!

Hi, 

I've just started trying to teach myself warping back to front.  I built myself a raddle and made my warps yesterday according to the instructions in Deborach Chandler's "Learning to Weave."  This is the only book I have on the subject, currently.

Unfortunately I think I just made a big mistake!  I have my warps attached in the back, and was just about to start organizing them in the raddle.  In the book, she says to lay them out in sections, using your counting tie as a guide.  Alas, I cut my counting tie out while I was trying to get the warp attached to the back apron rod, not knowing it was so important!!!! Now, I have no idea what order my warp ends go.  Is there any hope for this?  Or do I have to make a whole new warp?  I have had problems with twisted ends in the warp before, and I'd like to not repeat that...

This is what I have going on.  Any advice would be great!!

 

Comments

Posted on Wed, 08/03/2016 - 14:49

Is your cross at the other end of the warp?  I don't see it in the picture.  That is going to be the easiest place to figure out how to organize the warp through the raddle.  You may want to consider flipping warp end to end if that is the case.

Posted on Wed, 08/03/2016 - 15:31

I've had a similar problem - not knowing the order of my ends at the raddle.  I also started as a F2B warper, and did that for 20 years (though many of those years saw little weaving).  I am still trying to get comfortable with B2F, and have made tons of mistakes.

Your specific problem I've experienced, and dealt with two different ways.  Sometimes, I've used my cross (which at times was at the far end of my warp), tracing the end order all the way to the back beam.  That was fraught with stress and fear of messing the entire thing up, but it did let me get the warp in order.  I don't have a cat or toddlers, and my dog is highly respectful of my weaving stuff, so the warp laying all over the floor turned out ok.

My other approach was just to let it be jumbled at that end, ignore it, and move forward in the warping.  I then kept the warp as tight as possible while winding on, and surprisingly, I didn't have any problems with the weaving. 

Here is a set of B2F instructions; I keep intending to print it out to remind myself.  I now put counting threads and a cross at both ends of my warps.  A bit anal, but it doesn't really take much more time.

I also make my counting thread be continuous so my bouts stay in the correct order, regardless of what hair-brained mistake I am trying to make.

Good luck and let us know how it all works out

Posted on Wed, 08/03/2016 - 15:29

Hi!

Yes, my cross is at the other end, toward the front of the loom.  You would suggest putting it in the back, and organizing the ends one by one in the raddle as they appear in the cross?  Will having the warp facing the opposite way affect the next steps that I take in the warping process?

Thanks!

Posted on Wed, 08/03/2016 - 15:33

Yes!  That does help.  Both of your comments do.  I was thinking of just letting it tangle in the back, and to not worry if I have an unweavable section toward the end...it's good to know that you have tried it with some success.  

Please do post instructions if you happen to find them again!

Posted on Wed, 08/03/2016 - 15:37

Oh!  I see you did post them! Thank you.  I got so excited reading your comment that I totally didn't realize...!

Posted on Wed, 08/03/2016 - 17:52

I kept editing my note, so you might have seen the first or second version I saved, but then realized I could update to make better.  Sorry about that!

I'm glad you found my comments useful.  I was surprised at how forgiving the warp was, the trick it to not have the mess cause tension changes as you weave. 

Posted on Fri, 08/05/2016 - 00:04

I used to use a counting thread,which I found tedious.  Now I use a raddle cross on one end (grouped into raddle groups) and a threading cross (2x2,since I wind 4 ends at once) at the other. If you flip your warp to get the right order in the raddle, you won't have the cross to thread with.  I would space it as best you can and move on.  If the warp is short enough, you could take it off, and use lease sticks to create a second cross and move it to the other end of the warp.  You need to keep it under tension to do this.

Posted on Fri, 08/05/2016 - 12:15

Hi everyone, 

Thanks for all your help!  I decided to just organize my ends as best I could, and go with it.  I think this would have worked for what I am doing (I only need to weave a few samples, so if the last part of the warp was unweaveable that would be OK) except I have several other factors against me now.  Unfortunately, I had to attach my raddle to the loom with rubber bands and it is sliding all over the place! I am having a hard time tugging on the chains hard enough.  Also, I have a random broken end that reared its ugly head...I'm thinking at this point, I may be happier in the long run if I just start over! At least now I'll know where I went wrong...

Posted on Fri, 08/05/2016 - 12:47

I think we've all been there, woolybat.  I sometimes feel as if I make a new warp mistake every time - and so I put on short warps so I warp frequently.  I also have found some useful youtube videos on B2F warping.  I think I need all the help I can get.

Posted on Fri, 08/05/2016 - 13:20

Maybe you have already gotten your warp on the loom, but I might have stretched out the warp to the lease sticks at the other end and with the warp under tension and spread out on the lease sticks, I might have picked a new raddle cross from those lease sticks.   I'd use another pair for this.  If you were putting 8 ends in each space of the raddle, say, I'd pick an 8 by 8 cross.  Then this new cross would be easier to shift to the back of the warp near the raddle.

Depends on your warp length and the space you have to spread out, of course.  And maybe the stickiness of the yarn.  You'd have to keep tension on the warp as you move the sticks with the raddle cross to the back.  Use a weight or a helper.   

  As to attaching the raddle, I use masking tape wound around it and the back beam a couple of times to hold it temporarily, though I don't have my nails out to the very edge as you do on yours so there is space for the tape.  Maybe the rubber bands are just a bit too stretchy.  Tape is somewhat quicker than clamps.

Teena Tuenge

Posted on Sat, 08/06/2016 - 15:13

B2F is nothing to fear. Don't let the experience disuade you from continuing the method. Now that you know the value of the counting cross, it's just a matter of making 'some' sense out of the warp. It doesn't have to be 'perfect'. Get it as close as you can. It will weave off just fine as long as you beam it on with constant tension.

As ricatlga pointed out, if your threading cross is still intact, get your lease sticks in and (under tension) slide/coax the lease down to this end of the warp. Use that to guide your threads to the appropriate sections.

The teaching value of these kinds of problems is immense. Seriously, no one can 'teach' you this experience. You won't find it in a book. You just have to think it through. It's a priceless learning experience. Frustrating, yes, but very valuable nonetheless.

I use a 1" raddle for coarser yarns. One inch spaces would be fine for this thickness of yarn. You'll get it sorted out. Don't give up.

Posted on Sat, 08/06/2016 - 17:58

When I started trying B2F warping, it was a rocky beginning.  Even today, I make a cross at both ends of the warp, just in case.  It isn't really any additional work, and it gives me peace of mind.  I also truly believe that I get better tension, and that its gentler on the warp, the F2B.

Posted on Sun, 08/07/2016 - 04:23

Agreed, and I do a 2 thread cross now too. I think it was Joanne Hall or Bonnie I. who talked about that: It helps lessen the tangles at the lease.... and it certainly does.

Posted on Mon, 08/08/2016 - 00:17

Your raddle is an interesting design. I've never seen the nails offset like that. How do you secure the threads in the raddle? Some use rubber bands, some raddles come with caps to hold the threads in place. My raddle is made of screw eyes set 1/2" apart.  I run a 1/4 in dowel through them to secure the warp in the raddle.  The raddle that came with my AVL has a cap, which came off in the middle of warping the one time that I have used it.  Disaster.

Posted on Mon, 08/08/2016 - 00:17

Your raddle is an interesting design. I've never seen the nails offset like that. How do you secure the threads in the raddle? Some use rubber bands, some raddles come with caps to hold the threads in place. My raddle is made of screw eyes set 1/2" apart.  I run a 1/4 in dowel through them to secure the warp in the raddle.  The raddle that came with my AVL has a cap, which came off in the middle of warping the one time that I have used it.  Disaster.

Posted on Mon, 08/08/2016 - 11:45

Hi all,

This is definietly a huge learning experience.  I've made my second warp now to try again (this time putting in counting threads on each end!) and I already feel like I have a slightly better idea of how everything is going to go.  I'm sure I'll have bumps this time around too, but like you pointed out TomZ, I am so willing to go through these frustrating scenarios so that I can emmerge a skilled warper (waaay in the distant future!!).  It's great having a forum like this with so much support.  It makes it easier to keep trekking on.  

big white sofa dog: the reason my raddle design looks interesting is probably because I made it myself, and I have no idea what I'm doing!!   Most of the time my warps have been fairly fine, so I was thinking the smaller the gaps the better (I put mine at 1/2" intervals) I put the nails in staggered rows because I was worried about splitting, but I don't know if that was a necessary concern.  This will be the first time I've used it, so I'll know whether or not it works for me very soon!

Posted on Tue, 08/09/2016 - 02:13

One thing you can do with yours to secure the threads is to tie a small dowel between the rows of nails. You need to secure the thread groups.  My raddle is homemade too, and I didn't invent the screw eye design, but it's the best and most secure raddle I've ever seen.  I have to make a bigger one for the AVL; I'm not using that raddle again.

Posted on Tue, 08/09/2016 - 02:14

One thing you can do with yours to secure the threads is to tie a small dowel between the rows of nails. You need to secure the thread groups.  My raddle is homemade too, and I didn't invent the screw eye design, but it's the best and most secure raddle I've ever seen.  I have to make a bigger one for the AVL; I'm not using that raddle again.

Posted on Wed, 10/19/2016 - 16:47

I just followed Peggy Osterkamp's back-to-front warping video, and success! What a satisfying project, and what a fantastic way to warp.  I can see why there are a lot of dedicated back-to-fronters out there.  I escaped all of the problems I've ever encountered font-to-back warping, and my warp is tighter and more even than ever.  I'm looking forward to winding many more warps like this in the future!