I'm considering weaving a scarf using lace weight knitting yarns. (Most likely wool, or a wool blend.) I have never woven with lace weight knitting yarn. What would it be similar to in weaving yarns? 5/2? 3/2? etc. I have also never woven with wool yarns before. Is there anything specific that I need to be aware of? Any qwirks?

I don't want the scarf to be really stiff. Would it be better to try a merino or alpaca wool? Or perhaps weave with a similar weight yarn mixed in either the weft or warp?
Sorry for all the questions! I'm still pretty new to weaving. Any help would be wonderful. :)

Thanks,
JoAnna

Comments

Thu, 10/29/2009 - 20:30

francorios (not verified)

How many wraps per inch on a ruler is the yarn you are planning to use? Then you can compare to other size yarns.

Have a good day!

Franco Rios

Thu, 10/29/2009 - 21:51

ingamarie

Start as Franco says by figuring WPI, that will get you started on what sett to use, after that is where sampling comes into play. 

Merino is fine to work with , so is alpaca although it's a bit slipperier to work with than wool, so that's something to consider. You'll want a more open sett than with linen or cotton, so the yarn can bloom. I find mostly the weird thing with wool and similar fibers is that it's really stretchy-- I'm used to linen and to a lesser extent cotton-- and those fibers have much less give. You kind of know where you have them, the woolies are a little harder (to me) to work with because you have to use a much lighter hand and can't just beat them into submission!  Mixed warps are a lot of fun, but you'll want to be sure to space your various types of fiber somewhat equally so you don't end up with part of it behaving one way and another part another way.  Another thing to think about is weave structure-- something with a lot of interlacements (where the warp and weft cross) like plain weave is going to be stiffer than something with fewer interlacements (like a twill).

I really like to experiment when I'm doing something I've never done before. So what I would do is put on several extra feet or even yards of warp, taking your best guess on sett, then start to play. When you think you've got it right (including cutting it off the loom and washing  it to be sure) then launch into your project.  Asking questions here is great way to get started, a good way to learn from collective wisdom,  to fine tune that first guess, and to get help figuring out why it's not doing what you want.  And when it does do what you want-- it's also a great place to celebrate that fact-- so post pictures!

marie

Thu, 10/29/2009 - 23:02

Caroline (not verified)

Last month I finished a scarf on my Knitters loom with the 7.5 reed. I used a 3 ply/laceweight worsted-spun knitting wool as the warp, and a thicker ( very bulky) designer yarn as the weft, and its lovely and soft. I like the combination and plan using that yarn again as warp. It was a bit stretchy, but it didn't take long to work out what tension I needed to have it at, and how hard or soft to beat the web - I should have sampled first I know, but didn't.

I do know my scarf would not have been as soft and fluid if I had used a thicker warp yarn, so using a finer than normal yarn even in a widely-spaced sett works as a scarf. it would not have worked as a towel or place mat.

Fri, 10/30/2009 - 15:53

JoAnnaWeaves (not verified)

I don't actually have the wool yet. This is like pre-pre planning. :) That's my fear. If I buy the yarn, will I be able to use it? It always seems to come down to sampling...*lol* I should know this by now.

I was considering using it just as weft yarn since I'd be buying it in skeins and I don't have a big yarn budget and then using a yarn with a soft hand a good drape for the warp. Possibly Tencel or Rayon...That would also take out the unknown of sett. If I did use it in the warp, I would probably still mix it with Rayon or Tencel and see what it did.

This is probably obvious, but I wouldn't want to wash it in hot water right? Can I machine wash it using cold water and low agitation? I always try to avoid handwashing. Call me a product of the machine age.

On a side note, has anyone else noticed how much algebra is involved with weaving? I used to hate math and never could understand how I would EVER use algebra and now I use it almost on a daily basis. Now I know what I'll tell  my kids someday when they're learning algebra and ask me, "When am I EVER going to use this stuff?"

 

Fri, 10/30/2009 - 20:11

claudia (not verified)

Hi Joanna,

I have no doubt you will use the yarn although I wouldn't put it with rayon or tencel in the warp unless you are going to do the math of having that heavy a warp.  I have found the algebra of calculating warps and wefts a little easier using the Weaving calculator here on Weavolution.

As Caroline pointed out, knitting yarns tend to be a bit stretchy and you need to be cautious not to pull too tightly when winding the warp.  You want to have some tension just don't pull very tightly.  Also, watch your tension on the loom, you don't want it pulled totally stiff.  I have used knitting yarns almost exclusively on my rigid heddle loom and the result has been very good.  I tend to use smaller heddles (fewer dents/inch) than I would with weaving yarns that are spun more tightly.

Almost anything can be used as weft, I have even used plastic bags cut up as weft and it works very well  Just be sure to calculate you warp accordingly and sample, sample, sample.  It is never a waste of yarn to do a 9 or 12" sample, wash it and let it dry and see what happens.  It is worth every penny.  I keep records of the results, too.

As for washing the wool.  I always put my woolen items in very hot water with mild soap and let it soak for about 10 minutes.  If I have several items I put them in the washing machine and leave them soak in hot water then spin the water out and let them air dry.  That way the wool fulls slightly and opens up and becomes much softer.  It's another reason that samples are so important.  Weave, wash, take notes, make adjustments and you will have a woven item you feel proud to have made.

Claudia

Fri, 10/30/2009 - 20:37

JoAnnaWeaves (not verified)

Thanks for the reply! I think I'm going to end up using for weft. I don't trust myself enough yet to try it for warp. :) My tension can still be pretty uneven.

Thanks for the tips on washing wool too! I wasn't sure how to wash something wool without it felting. I knit to felt as well as weave so usually I WANT things to felt. :)

I found this site by googling "Weaving Calculator" I've found it pretty helpful. Strangely enough, I've actually begun to enjoy simple algebra. (A huge SHOCK to myself!) But pretty much only when planning weaving projects. haha

I will hopefully be able to get the yarn I'm looking at and sample some to see what happens. Thanks for all the help!

JoAnna

Fri, 10/30/2009 - 23:28

Loominaria (not verified)

Hi, JoAnna--

Like Claudia, my rigid heddle looms are working through a yarn stash that was originally intended for knitting and crochet.  The only real struggle I've had so far was trying to use a very stretchy superwash merino as warp. It kept breaking plies in the heddle holes, which made moving the heddle forward to beat impossible. It might have worked if I had used the heddle only to change sheds with a sword/stick-shuttle-blade to beat.

Wools (and to a lesser extent other hair fibres) are most likely to felt from a combination of heat, agitation/pressure, and an alkaline environment between pH 7-9. There are other factors (e.g., the bleach/dye process that the yarn has already experienced). If you'd like some physics and chemistry to go with that algebra, there's a good article here.  I use Orvus paste for wool washing.  It's much cheaper from a farm type store than a yarn-related store.  Dawn dish washing liquid works well also. There are lots of higher priced options that don't work as well.

The main difference between wool and lesser (hah-hah!) fibres is that wool (if it hasn't been tortured too much with bleach, dye, or -- ick -- superwash coating) clings to itself--possibly an annoying feature in making clear sheds, but a great feature for stability of the fabric. Some wools have oils from spinning machines that make them easier to weave, and those oils will wash out, restoring the cling-ishness after it's off the loom.  Most knitting wools have this oil removed, but not all. Also (if it hasn't been tortured...) wool has memory.  It will return to its original state with moisture.  Weaving wools on cones are stretched, knitting wools in hanks and balls are much less stretched, so the latter tend to shrink less.

You can mix fibres in warp and weft, but you should either be very open to surprises when it comes to different shrinkage rates, or you need to sample. If you mix yarn weights across a warp, I understand it's best to mix them fairly evenly if you have a single warp beam.  I made a blanket with 3 sections of warp that had different yarn weights, and you could tell that the centre section was always trying to play catch-up with the side panels, every time I advanced the warp.

Warp is easiest to work with if it's strong and smooth. Many knitting wools do not meet that description. But I've been amazed by some of the warps I've seen on the Ashford Knitter's loom using the 7.5 dpi heddle with the extra large holes. Again, sampling reduces the element of surprise. If I can break a yarn with my hands easily, I usually don't bother trying to use it as warp.

I'm the opposite of you as far as figuring out yarn thickness from the numbers. I'm used to 'fingering, sport, DK, worsted' and the Australian ply system, but the wool, linen, and cotton numbering for weaving yarns is still somewhat mysterious.  The 'size' numbers of crochet cotton also don't mean much to weavers who haven't crocheted. I often go to Halcyon's catalogue to check their recommended setts against what I'm estimating with wraps per cm/inch.

Do check out the blends.  Such combinations as wool/silk and wool/alpaca often drape more fluidly than wool alone.

Kurt

Sat, 10/31/2009 - 12:41

claudia (not verified)

Hi Kurt,

As for figuring out the sett, have you tried the Weaving sett calculator in our Resources section?  It helped me a great deal when I was dealing with a mystery yarn.  I used the McMorran and found it was 475 ypp and the wpi was 8!  Yes, very bulky.  I wanted to weave it with a warp sett of 6 but was not sure.  I plugged the numbers into the sett calculator and came up with 7.  I used that sett and the drape on the fabric was very nice.  If I had sett it at 6, it might have worked out but not sure.

Give it a try, the full explanation for each number is below the calculator.  Knowing wpi is important.

Claudia

Sun, 11/01/2009 - 00:16

Loominaria (not verified)

Yes, I've looked at that calculator and don't know what it's asking for in the 2nd and 3rd blanks.

Kurt

Sun, 11/01/2009 - 12:53

claudia (not verified)

Well, that's a good question.  Let's see if I can answer that.

Enter Warp Yarn Here

 

Finished length of ONE article
 
 
Cotton, Linen, Silk, Rayon, Wool?
(include amount for hems): 
 How long will the entire item be when complete?
Quantity to weave:  
 How many of this item (scarf, napkin, placemat) are you making?
 
 
Fringe: 

 

How long is the fringe on one side going to be?  3" or 5"  then it multiplies it for you.

 

Claudia

 

 

Is that helpful?  Please let me know.  The calculator is not perfect but of all the ones we considered, we found this one to be the most complete and accurate.  I can attest to the accuracy because I use this all the time, in part because I can print it so easily, and I have never had a problem with a warp that was too long or short.  I just finished 2 scarves on the RH  loom and had exactly 12" of loom waste left when I cut off the 2nd scarf. 

Claudia

 
Mon, 11/02/2009 - 00:36

TinaHilton (not verified)

Remember that you don't want to have it in the machine when it fills.  The water rushing in will fill it.  And be careful of the rinse cycle.  Many machines spray water while it's spinning, which can cause uneven fulling.  I didn't know about it and it messed up a wool shawl.


Mon, 11/02/2009 - 02:46

Loominaria (not verified)

If you are replying to me, I think your answer is using a different calculator than the link you posted. I was referring to the weaving sett calculator's 2nd and 3rd blanks, ends per repeat and intersections per repeat. The definitions refer the weaver to his draft, and I'm not using drafts for the types of weaving I do.

Kurt

Mon, 11/02/2009 - 13:48

claudia (not verified)

Hi Kurt,

I read the whole thing in Sharon Alderman's book last night, hoping to find a definition to those two items myself.  I must admit the answer baffles me too.  In her book, Mastering Weave Structures, on p250, she says R = the number of ends in a repeat. you can get this from your draft.  She goes on to say "It may be simpler to determine than you might predict.  For example, all the structures that are based on plain weave-three element weaves with plain-weave shots or tabbies and lace weaves, should be set as if they were plain weave, making the calculation very simple".

Do you understand that paragraph?  I assume, if you look at the draft for plain weave on a RH loom, you have two shafts and therefore you would have two ends per repeat.  But I'm not sure because that is the weaving side of the draft, in threading plain weave, which is like using a 2-shaft loom, there are 2 ends on the threading draft and 2 ends on the weaving side of the draft.  If you are using a 4 harness loom it would be 4 ends.

What do you think, given the full explanation?

Claudia

Mon, 11/02/2009 - 15:10

Sharon (not verified)

It is the structure, not necessarily the way you have threaded it if you are weaving plain weave.  I routinely thread plain weave cotton on eight shafts for some things, but the structure is still plain weave which repeats in two ends.

The number of intersections per repeat is something you work out by drawing cross-sectional diagrams.  Again, see the appendix of Mastering Weave Structures as Claudia cited above. 

It is important that the method you use to calculate sett takes into account  both the size of the threads involved and the interlacement that will be used.  A method that doesn't take both these things into consideration won't be reliable.  The more times the weft passes from the face of the cloth to the back and vice versa, the more open the sett has to be.  The sett, therefore, for plain weave will be less dense than that for an 8 shaft satin.

I hope this helps you, Kurt.

Sharon

Mon, 11/02/2009 - 15:12

kerstinfroberg

Claudia - the number of ends in one repeat (usually - I don't have that book) means the number of ends in one repeat of the weave structure. Thus, if if is plain weave, there are 2 ends per repeat, regardless of the number of shafts you use.

Mon, 11/02/2009 - 21:40

Loominaria (not verified)

I think I'm halfway to understanding now.  Ends per repeat is becoming clear.

I'm not so clear on intersections per repeat. An intersection is any point where the weft 'changes surface'--i.e., moves from front to back or back to front? In some weaving patterns, won't there be different numbers of intersections, depending on which pick you count? Do you average, or do you go on the assumption that the pick with the most intersections per repeat will 'rule' the fabric?

Thanks for walking me through this.

Kurt

Tue, 11/03/2009 - 05:45

Sharon (not verified)

Kurt, you have it right: an intersection occurs when the weft goes from the face (right side) of the cloth to the back and from the back to the face.  If you think about it, that number will always be even if you have a complete repeat.  In one repeat if the weft starts out on the face, it will start out on the face for the next repeat.  That is what a repeat is: a unit that repeats over and over.

For a given pattern the # of intersections will not vary across the cloth.  For a three shaft twill, for example, the weft goes over two warp ends and under one (that is the twill in classic blue jeans).  In that case, R=3 and I=2, so the sett is three times the number of wraps per inch divided by 3+ 2, or 3/5 T (the number of wraps per inch.)

I think you said that you are using knitting yarn.  Is that the case?  When using something as stretchy as knitting yarn, extra care must be used in figuring the wraps per inch.  I wrap such yarns with minimal tension because I want to have a measure of the diameter of the yarn when it is relaxed, as it will be when it is off the loom.  For cotton or linen or silk that is not a problem, but one of the lovely characteristics of wool is its elasticity and knitting wools are VERY elastic.

Good luck,

Sharon

Tue, 11/03/2009 - 06:51

Loominaria (not verified)

But suppose you have a pattern of horizontal stripes such as Twill and Plain No. 1 on page 168 of The Key to Weaving? Two picks of tabby followed by 2 picks of 3/1 (or is it 1/3?) twill.  The vertical repeat is 8 picks. The horizontal repeat is over 4 warps, with 4 intersections on the tabby picks and 2 intersections on the twill picks.  Tabby picks 5 and 6 are the same as 1 and 2, but the twill moves left on picks 7 and 8. Given the even balance of tabby and twill, I would assume the tabby will hold the width and you would choose a sett appropriate for tabby, but I don't have enough experience to make assumptions yet. Would the twill picks draw in the tabby a bit?  More than a bit?

I have mostly knitting yarn, mostly wool and wool blends. I haven't done much with plant fibres except crochet and a bit of tablet weaving.

Kurt

Tue, 11/03/2009 - 07:19

Caroline (not verified)

As I understand it, pattern repeats go across the warp, not up and down it.

The number of rows of weft are not counted in this instance. If you look at the draft you've cited, the pattern repeat is 4. The 1st warp starts the first repeat, and the fifth is identical as is the 9th, and so on across the whole width.The second, 6th, 10th etc and so it goes on. I presume this is what Sharon and  Claudia are saying - at least what I understand them to say - so please tell me if I have not got it!

Tue, 11/03/2009 - 17:24

Sharon (not verified)

In the case Kurt cites, a plain weave cloth with weft-wise twill stripes, the sett used is for the plain weave. The twill stripe will naaturally beat in more closely.  If the cloth were turned 90 degrees so that there were stripes of plain weave next to stripes of twill, that would not be the case.  In the second possibility, six shafts would be needed (for a four shaft twill), and two setts would be used, one for the plain weave areas and a different one for the twill.

Your question about the cloth drawing in at the edges where the twill stripes occur in the weft is a perceptive one.  That will happen.  I avoid it when necessary by using a heaver weft for those stripes, how much heaver only a woven sample using your yarns will reveal.  I'm impressed that you could look ahead and forsee that.

Sharon

Tue, 11/10/2009 - 14:27

Michael White

Two scarfs all knitting yarn, the warp for both was six different knitting yarns set at 6epi. The weft for the scarf on the left was lion Brand Yarn, Moonlight Mohair (57% Acrylic, 28% Mohair, 9% Cotton, 6% Poly Metallic) The scarf on the right used a blue sport weight wool for the weft.  Both where woven on a Macomber 48 inch, 4H loom. Hand washed, rolled in a  towel to remove excess water and hung to dry.             

 

              

Tue, 11/10/2009 - 19:01

Jeanne-Marie (not verified)

 

 Wool is stretchy, and folks have given great pointers for working with it.  the only other piece of advice I would add is when you are done weaving for the day, do not leave it under tension on the loom as it will stretch.

 

I also wash mine in the wash machine on cold with 1/4 cup of both cheap shampoo and conditioner.

Tue, 11/10/2009 - 20:26

HazelRose (not verified)

I am also a bit new to weaving on the big looms. I just fulled my last project, which was a stole pf wool. Worsted  not lace. but it is knitting yarn and stretchy. I was worried that I might have difficulty with tension, but it did fine, I wove it in a plain tabby and beat very lightly. My selvages are still a little wonky but all in all I think it turned out well. I fulled in in the machine's gentle cycle, standing by the whole time and checking frequently, having learned that lesson the hard way.

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