Sett for Satin

Most weaves are a derivative of 3 basic structures - plain, twill or satin.

Because of the skips, satin needs to be sett very closely - you'll need to experiment with your chosen yarns and see what gives you a pleasing fabric. Absolute formulas are less than perfect since within that approximate percentage or wraps, there is room for variance in terms of how you wish to have the fabric for your intended use. Also, a 5-end satin will be a firmer fabric than an 8-shaft satin because the skips are longer with the 8-shaft version.

There is nothing difficult about setting up a 5-end satin if you have 5 shafts on your loom. It is usually put on the loom such that after threading and tying up, the treadling is a straight 1-5.

To progress from beginner to intermediate weaving, it is highly recommended that you get some basic books. "Big Book of Weaving" has a decent section on structure and drafting. Ulla Getzmann's "Weave Structures the Swedish Way" is excellent, and the new "Warp & Weft" from Eriksson is also a good choice. Sooner or later you'll find yourself happily doing your own design work.

Hi Sara,

I think my initial post was misleading as to my motive.  I'm not trying to figure out the sett for an actual project.  I actually need the formula for a reason:  the ratings program for our guild.  I've asked the mentors, combed through books, and basically have come up with nothing so far.  I've checked Mary Black's Key to Weaving, Helene Bress' The Weaving Book, Deborah Chandler's Learning to Weave, and a few others.  I haven't yet done a dive through my collection of Prairie Wool Companion, Weaver's Journal, and Weaver's Magazines to find some article about satin. I haven't checked Getzmann's book though, and that's a decent possibility because the Europeans do a lot more satin-based weave structures than the Americans do.  (Maybe it's because all the looms that are built for that specialty are the size of a living room couch.  ;-) )

I've woven two satin pieces in the past and basically just sampled the sett until I've found a sett that works and looks pleasing.  I didn't keep record sheets on those pieces so I can't compare to see if my theorized formula above is right.  And I can't remember them because I wove them about 15-20 years ago.  (I have this love affair with cotton and point twill structures.  Not silk and linen in satin.)

I think I'm on the right track though for a basic satin sett.  I just wanted to see if someone out there actually knew of an article or book or magic 8-ball that held the answer.  The question asked in the manual is:

Describe the procedure for determining
the approximate sett for balanced plain weave, balanced twill, and satin.

If you want to calculate sett for something like this, use the Ashenhurst formula. Sett depends on the fiber and yarn size along with the interlacement. That last figure is calculated from the number of times a weft passes over and under the warp. For a 4-shaft twill, there are 2 interlacements (does not matter if it is 1/3 or 2/2 twill) every 4 threads. For a 5-end satin, there are two every 5 threads. For 8-end satin, there are two every 8 threads so you need a closer sett for 8-end satin. 

Peggy Ostercamp includes Ashenhurst in her books and it is in many others.

From this number you adjust for the desired effect. Ashenhurst assumes you want equal numbers for epi and ppi, not always the case of course.

Bonnie

Sharon Alderman's Mastering Weave Structures Appendix C has a formula for calculating setts, maybe this will help you too.

I'm trying to wrap my head around the 2 interlacements in 5 threads of satin structure.  I thought that was a 1/4 structure (one shaft up and four down at any point in the weave).  In Ashenhurst, that would be: 5/6 x wraps.  If the interlacements are 2 in a 5 thread structure the Ashenhurst formula would be: 5/7 x wraps. 

That's exactly what I was looking for though.

Sorry, wrote, before I really read, the formula is pretty basic.

Silly question, but where are the 2 interlacements in the 5 or 8 end satin? Over 5 threads 1 is up and all others down - same with 8 - 1 up 7 down. If using shaded satins, yes you can have more interlacements, but that is something for more advanced looms.

Also, satin weaves can be done on any loom small or large - true that most damask is based on 5 or 8 end satin, but it is used for many other fabrics. Also, the sett chosen will be affected by which is the right side of the fabric and the relationship of warp grist to weft grist. I'm experimenting right now on a linen drawloom warp and using various wefts and using various numbers of weft shots to make a unit to get a pleasing aspect ratio.

Just to be complete in case someone is searching for this information.

The Ashenhurst formula

S = T  x (R / (I + R))

where

S = Sett

T = number of thread wraps in one inch

R = number of threads in one repeat of pattern structure

I = number of interlacements in one pattern structure

So, the 4-shaft twill would be

S = T x (4 / (2 + 4))

or 2/3 T  (4/6 T)

And the 5-shaft satin would be

S = T x (5 / (2 + 5))

or 5/7 T

Just to be complete in case someone is searching for this information.

The Ashenhurst formula

S = T  x (R / (I + R))

where

S = Sett

T = number of thread wraps in one inch

R = number of threads in one repeat of pattern structure

I = number of interlacements in one pattern structure

So, the 4-shaft twill would be

S = T x (4 / (2 + 4))

or 2/3 T  (4/6 T)

And the 5-shaft satin would be

S = T x (5 / (2 + 5))

or 5/7 T

I see the 2 interlacements.  It's a 1/4 structure for a basic 5-thread satin.  That one thread up has two interlacements, one on each 'edge' as the thread bends around it. 

Thanks to everyone for their help.

Also known as the count, the distance between tie downs. Intervals refers to float length. I think just some difference in terminology .

Hi Interl, I am still wandering thru the satin writings. I agree with you, they are far & few between. I documented somebof the writings for my bibliography for my Complex Weavers sample piece. Jump to the link below and look for the PDF link to my sample write up. Perhaps some of those articles will address your question or have a bibliography for you to follow the satin bread crumb trail.
http://weavolution.com/draft/5-end-satin...

Deb. beautiful sample and nice write up. I have a lot of 5 end satin files from several years of study. How do I transfer those drafts to weavolution ?

Thanks Cathie, in answer to your question in #13 above on loading drafts, check out the draft selection up in the top black bar.  You can enter a draft that way.  There is a video here.  I think it is still current.

I am assuming that you have a weaving software program and know how to export a wif.  If you don't just take a photo of the drawdown and load the jpg to the draft.  Also in your word description don't forget to link to a project if you have real cloth that shows the weaving.  I think when you create a project you can link it to a draft.  Anyway, watch the video and wallow thru the draft selection to try and load your satin drafts.  When all else fails ask a question in the Help forum.  take care  Deb Mc

Thanks Deb, will do!