selveges

 Hi Mary,

The selvedge edge thread that doesn't go through a heddle  otherwise known as a  "hanging selvedge" (h.s.) is often useful to improve fabric edges, but isn't necessary for many weave structures. It can be used when weaving twills or structures in which the edge thread of the fabric isn't "caught" by the weft for several picks.  A hanging selvedge of a strong, smooth fiber (sometimes fishing line) can be weighted and used to decrease draw-in and removed once the fabric is off the loom.  Anyway, it is really "project dependent".  There are also other tools that can be used to improve selvedge such as  temples, again depending on your objective and your project.

Hope this wee bit of info helps.

Happy 2010

Lisa

Hmm....that;s interesting about the fishing line. I had not heard that before. Thanks for that.

Laverne

Thanks for the help, I'll continue now without. 

I have a temple but have not employed it yet either.

Happy I found this forum!

Hi Mary,

We're happy you found us! The other thing you can do is post a picture of your project so we can see how your selveges look and then be able to offer suggestions based on a specific design. To post a picture, take a look at this YouTube entry: www.youtube.com/watch  it will help you learn how to upload photos.

I, too, often forget about the fishing line but I have used it on a tencel scarf I was making and it worked very well.

Claudia

Picking up ona different thread in your posting, Mary:  I just acquired a Union 36 loom yesterday (or the day before).  It's in pieces and metal parts are rusted.  I ordered Handweaving.net's digital copy of the instruction manual.  What do I need to know or to watch out for in using this loom (when we get it together)?  It's been a good number of years since my then-husband and I assembled my Harrisville 40" loom...

I've been blogging about weaving with a pesky linen weft - here is a photo of a towel that I wove yesterday...

and wet finished today...for more on the story http://laurasloom.blogspot.com and read the past few days posts.

If you are happy with your selvedges, then you're doing what you need to be doing.

Cheers,

Laura

What a beautiful shimmering piece. It reminds me of mother of pearl.

The union 36 is my first loom and I bought it without knowing anything about weaving.  Luckily it was warped and I got it home without having to take it apart.   I didn't do anything to refurbish it but clean it up a bit.  Heddles aren't shiny but work fine.

So, 18 months later I have to say it was a great beginner loom because you can start out simple and challenge yourself with new techniques one by one.

I have a copy of the original instructions and found them very useful in my learning process.

I also took many pictures before and after the move if you would like to see some to assist in assembly. 

Mary C

I'd love to see them when you get a chance to upload them.  Thanks, Mary!

I know it as a "floating" selvedge.

 You're right - sorry - brain blip. 

Lisa

They feel great, too!  Well worth weaving with a doubled linen that insists on being pesky.  ;)

Cheers,

Laura

This is my U36 from where I rescued it.

After it's first bath at home.

Now it's inside and running smoothly.  If you need some pictures to asseble yours from just let me know.  I have plenty!

Mary C,

If i read you right, you are weaving with heavy weft? Such as rugs?

I usually double up the last 2 threads coming from the heedle to the reed, of each selvedge. 

2-2 for 2 sets. then across at 1-1-1-1-1-1 per dent , then the last 2 sets up again 2-2.

While this might not enhance your selvedge, it will stabilize it for a long life. This pic should show you the density at the selvedge edge.

Hope this helps.

Mary

Thanks Mary, it did help.

So in the 2-2 at each end there would be a front and rear heddle into one reed dent, done two times?

Here's a pic of what I'm doing and the end warps come together.  Am I pulling my weft to tight?

I think the need for floating selvedges depends on many things.  Right now I'm weaving weft-face patterns using all possible treadlings on a 4-shaft straight draw, as well as some picked sheds and some inlay.  I have five shuttles going at once, and am at all times carrying 1 to 4 wefts up the selvedge.  When I learned the techniques I was weaving on a warp-weighted loom in Norway.

Well, to make a long story short, a floating selvedge is critical for works of this sort.  Even better is to have floating sevedges and do a "Norway selvedge turn", illustrated below.  The red lines are floating selvedges, and all wefts exit above them, then make a wrap under the floating selvedge and emerging so as to cross itself upon entering the next shed.  Read the following from the bottom, where the weft is passing from right ot  left...

This makes a nice braided effect on the edge of weft-faced textiles.

Mary C,

That's how i do it. You can experient with 2, 3 or 4 sets of 2 to see how you like the look. I don't think you're pulling your weft tight at all. I pull mine even tighter than what i see in your picture. Yours looks great, as long as each selevedge extends about the same loop size, i think you're good. Looks great!

Mary

That looks like it would make a really pretty edge, Bonnie. I am noting that down to try some time on a weft faced piece. Can't wait to see what you are working on now-it sounds very interesting.

Laverne

What an informative reply!  I haven't done anything weft faced yet but this is so helpful.  Thank you. 

Since you said you can't wait I'm posting an in-progress shot.  This is weft-faced, woven using 5 colours of weft and making patterns using plain weave, 2/2 3/1 and 1/3 twills, and 3-shaft pointed twill (krokbragd) -- all of which can be treadled on a 4-shaft loom threaded in straight draw.  There is also some hand-picking and inlay.

I have been experimenting a lot lately with weft-faced patterning and was reminded to re-visit this mixed technique from Norway.  In Katherine Larson's book "The Woven Coverlets of Norway" there are photos of this technique on pages 94 and 113.

I expect to finish this panel today and will put  it on the projects page as soon as I can.  Unfortunately for this thread, I have not been doing the Norway selvedge, and I'm really sorry that I didn't.  I've dealt with it as best I can, but I know I'd have gotten a really nice edge -- these two panels (first one is done) are samplers, will end up being a shopping bag.

 Nice!  Is the band of Xs sort of at the middle tapestry?

I love Kay Larson's book.  

Tommye

Bonnie! I was expecting something amazing but this has far exceeded my expectations. Wow.

I would never think to put those colors together-they work so well. This looks like a lot of fun to weave with all the changes in pattern. This will make a spectacular shopping bag. I owe my mum a woven shopping bag and was going to do weft inlay butterflies on it (rose goldilocks's nice idea) but this has inspired me to be more adventurous with it.

So, after you finish sampling, what are you going to make with this fabric?

Thanks for posting this for me,

Laverne

Yes Tomme it is tapestry woven in the "4 picks per pass with Navajo turns" - style !! lol  I just took a class with James Koehler and this is not woven according to his style of tapestry.

When I took the weaving class in Norway, I was pretty amazed that although the "lightning" pattern was frequently used in their weft-face textiles, I saw no pieces using the fabulous Navajo turn that enables smooth, reversable obliques on both sides of the textile.  The two versions of obliques that I saw there resulted in (1) steps, or (2) using interlock and getting shadow lines on the reverse.  Unless the reverse side of a textile can be examined it's hard to tell though, but I do remember that the instructor of our class was quite astonished by the way I did angles, and I spent some time showing her how it was done as she had never seen it.

Regarding the colours, that was also sampling/experimental.  I have learned from experience that if I use at most 5 colours in weaving of this sort, then the mixes created by the different patterns make up many tones, and all-in-all it is just complicated enough.  More colours gets kind of busy.  I chose the secondary colours because when winding a warp recently, and using two yarns at a time, I found that when the yarns were two secondary colours my eye started to perceive the common primary.  I found this interesting.  So I'm seeing if just the secondaries will glow with primaries -- unlikely, I know, at this scale, but anyway that was why I chose the colours.

The shopping bag idea is good for this size (17" x 20") but I may find that by the time I add a handle it will be heavier than I like and won't get much use.  Pillow covers is another possibility.  My piece from the class now covers a pillow and is one of my dog's favorite sleeping spot.

 Hi Bonnie... could you describe further about the "...Navajo turn...." you mention?  I use meet and separate, wefts traveling in opposite directions but am not sure if that's what you're meaning.

Thanks in advance for insight!

Tommye

OK, this is what I mean:

All wefts pass in the same direction all the time, and every row of weaving is completed before changing the shed.  Weft bouts are entered starting with the leftmost bout when wefts are entering on the right, and vice versa.

Designs are printed on (a type of) graph paper and are followed row-by row.  Allowance for aspect ratio (ends per inch to picks per inch) is done before the design is graphed.

Smooth horizontal colour-change lines are obtained by piggybacking the second colour over the first in the same shed.  Smooth vertical lines are made by slits that are woven together row-by-row with a thin thread, or by dovetailing.  Interlocking is used very infrequently because the order of weft bout insertion makes interlocking quite difficult.

Smooth obliques are made using a 4-pick pass.  Here is a diagram of how it works:

The yellow dots indicate that two wefts pass under a warp end on the same shed.  The four picks that make up a pass are numbered, and passes are alternately shaded green and white.  This diagram shows 5 passes, equaling 20 picks.

I found this 4-pick structure in the book "Navajo Shepherd and Weaver" by Gladys A. Reichard, page 87, where she calls it a "Navajo join", and on page 90 gives a detailed drawing.  This basic angle can be steepened or flattened by piggybacking to the left on pick 2, or to the right on pick 3.  But the weft insertion angle is strictly followed for each of the 4 picks in the pass.  This enables precise rendering of complex patterns, which is what I love -- tessellations, Escher-like patterns, etc.  And it avoids dealing with full-size cartoons.

This may be more information that you hoped for ...

 Thanks so much for taking time to describe this!  And I think I might have the book you mention; I'll look in the studio tomorrow.

Tommye

Sorry the diagram was so small -- it's better now.

Bonnie,

This is absolutely one of the best weaving diagrams i have ever seen. the beauty is that you don't need to read a thing, just look and examine the picture. Did you do  this in Photoshop? It's brilliant. Thanks for "shedding" some light on this subject.

Mary

Bonnie,

I'm anxious to give this "Norway selvedge turn" a try on my next piece. Can I just add a floating selvedge on to my loom that's already warped?  I am willing to try anything and some of my things could use a more finished edge.

I've done some "tapestry" type weaving on my U36 and have used a few pick sheds too.   My learning to weave has been all by books and trial and error. 

Thanks for the diagram and you efforts!!  Here's a sample of my learning.

Mary C

Thank you.  I do weave simulations like this one in CorelDraw, which is similar to Photoshop I believe.  I couldn't get along without my "shaped float drawup for weft-face weaving" routine.  Here is a sample of that format:

I can change the colour of any pick, and I can also compress the image (adjust the aspect ratio ppi:epi) to get a very accurate representation of the weave.  Here is one in colour:

It is not a very user-friendly routine, but I have been working on it for many years and find it really useful.

Is it time to get on my bandwagon again and rally for this to be incorporated into at least ONE of the existing weaving programs?

Bonnie.

Hi Mary C.  Yes, you can add a floating selvedge.  I highly recommend using a doubled warp yarn.  Tie it to the front rod or pin it into a previous web.  Thread the doubled end through the reed, then straight back over the back beam, not passing through any heddle.  Attach a weight so that the floating selvedge has just slightly more tension than the rest of the warp  Do the same on the other side and you're good to go.

I think that bag shows some real ingenuity -- I love the way you receded the inlay at the top -- very appropriate to the purpose and decorative as well.

Bonnie,

Hope this is what the Norway turn supposed to look like.  It's a nice finish for me to use even with the rag weft.

Many thanks, I'm sure it will improve my finished pieces!  I'll keep practicing.   Mary C

Hi Mary C.  The fine threads are the header, and your weaving is moving from the top of this photo to the bottom, right?  And this is the top (front) of the piece?

Then I think the problem is that you are re-entering the shed below the floating selvedge (blue) -- you enter and exit all sheds above the floating selvedge when you are doing the Norway turn.

Here are photos of one of my rugs showing how it would look on the loom.

You should finish your rug with what you have been doing as any change now will show.

Bonnie.

Hi Bonnie again,

I appreciate your assistance and hope I can get it right.

 I've gone in/out over the blue weighted line(both sides) and do the wrap around on the out.  Only did two new turns on this end.   I tighten the wrapped weft after I change treadles and my beater is still pulled towards me(should this be tighter?).  Should the blue line remain visible and will it get tied into the fringe upon completion?

Hope this makes sense but you did figure out what I was doing from an upside down picture before!  I'm going to take this apart and continue "My Norway Turn" to complete as you suggested but will try again once I hear from you:)

This is my very first lesson from anyone.  Thank you very much! 

Sooo much to learn,

Mary

Hi Mary C.  The last two wraps are perfect!  You've got it.  Yes the floating selvedge will be visible since your warp is visible all the way across.  On a weft-face piece it disappears into the weft just like all the other warps.

Since the rug in your photo is plain weave, the need for floating selvedges is more disgressional than if you were treadling twills or patterns.  This turn will give you a very durable, good-looking selvedge.  I'm eager to hear how you like it.

Bonnie.

Thanks Bonnie,

I like the look of the selvedge much better.  This is the last piece on this warp so it'll be a while before I get to really use it purposefully.

Mary C

Hi,

I have be asked by 52ZOZARK WEAVERS to post a note for her because she is unable to upload a photo she would like to share with the group here.  She wrote the following:

Been enjoying the ' selvedge ' banter and wanted to try 'jumping-in ' with something we have done, but still could not get the smaller pic into my post in your system!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I chose this ' route ' hoping you wouldn't mind " THIS-TIME ', finally reduced with ' My Pictures ' and still no further!!!!!!!!!!!!

For this ' Densified-Selvedge ' on the ' LOG-CABIN ' placemats, we used 4 ends to-a-dent starting with the first 3 dents together, then with a 1-dent-space, then a 2-dent space, then a 3-dent space, and finally a 4-dent space, then a ' LOG-END-AMPLIFIER ' of black in the next dent before starting the ' L/C ' at the other side "BACKINNG-OUT ' as you ' STARTED ', the ' densification assisted by using 2 of the 4 ends in either heddle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We were very pleased with the acceptance when we sold 26 sets of  placemats, some with 8 mats plus 6' runners during this past ' HOLIDAY-GIFT-SEASON '

Just a note to say that I've posted the two samplers in the projects file.  I really like the process and the output of this style of weaving.

I just took a look Bonnie. It's really lovely.