How close/snug should selvedges be? Should the selvedge be as loose a weave as the rest? My selvedges don't have loops, but they look loose, but if I try and snug them up, it squishes the selvedge thread to the one next to it. I hope this made sense.
Teri
Ideally the warp threads should be as wide at the fell (edge) of the cloth as they are in the reed. If they are wider, snug the thread a little. More often they are too snug which can lead to other problems. If they look at the same spacing as the rest of the warp, and are consistent, you are probably doing a great job :-)
Laurie Autio
Hi Teri,
Can you post a couple pictures so we can see what you are talking about? It's true, one picture is worth a thousand words and I find when you have questions about weaving it makes it much easier to answer when we can actually see what you are talking about.
Laurie has expressed it well. Your selvedge should not be snug but should be right against the edge thread. Some weavers add selvedge threads to each edge of the warp to allow for the natural draw-in that occurs in weaving. My favorite weaving teacher says to leave your hands off the selvedges. If you are placing the pick properly in the shed (this is me quoting Tom Knisely) then the selvedge will look good. He also said that one side will, invariably, be better than the other and I have found that to be true.
I try to keep my hands off and not fiddle with my selvedges. I find they come out much better when I do. Sampling really helps and once you establish the rhythm of weaving the selvedges should be fine.
Claudia
I am just curious Claudia-did your weaving teacher say why one side is always better than the other?
Laverne-who is obsessed with good edges and who is avoiding using the ''s'' word as I can't figure out the correct spelling-is it one of these wordsthat has both a British and American version? Can anyone set me straight on this?
I have always spelled it selvedges but my spell check does not like it.
Tom was never specific why one side turns out better than the other. I think it has something to do with whether you are right or left handed but would love to hear from a leftie as I am right handed and it's my right side that always looks a bit better. Take a look at this bread cloth done on my Baby Wolf about 2 months ago.
I think the right side is better than the left.
Claudia
Usually one hand catches or throws more consistently, leading to better selvedges (catching - opposite side, throwing - same side). If you have noticeably different edges, try sitting a little closer to one side (I think it is the poorer side, but I'd have to check to be sure). Just 4-6 inches in your seat position often does the trick. Watch your hand motions and see if they both do the same thing. It is surprising how different they can be without being obvious!
Laurie Autio
I probably shouldn't say this, because I really don't know, but I once read somewhere that the difference between the selvedges had to do with the twist of the yarn, which would favour one of the sides. Never quite understood it, though. So I have júst published my ignorance (again)
Let's build up a list here of ''could be''s and then some wise erson will come along and sort us out!
Okay, yarn twist is a ''could be'' and now here is my contribution to the list.........
I have often wondered what difference it would make if I wound an odd number of warps rather than an even number. I ALWAYS have an even number and I find that my ''inferior'' edge looks far better on the wrong side of the fabric than on the right side. I wonder if having an odd number of warps would fix that. But then every time I warp up I forget to wind an odd number to test this idea!
Laverne
Laverne, I think if I understand your backstrap threading that you are creating a plain weave shed most of the time, so I think you should have an odd thread on one side and a even thread on the other. This will allow the weft to catch properly on both sides as you cycle thru your sheds. That is different from taking care of the width of your web on the loom to have nice selveges (sp).
Hmmm, definitely worth thinking about! I always have an even number of threads, too, and was thinking last night at the loom, that the left selvedge just might look better if I cut off the outer thread.
Here's waiting for the wise ones....
There are two separate components to your selvedge appearances (and btw, I have always seen handweavers spell it "selvedge" and everyone else spell it "selvage" - not sure why!). One has to do with the fabric take-up, the other with the weave structure.
Weave structure: if your weave structure is such that the selvedge threads do not get caught with every pick, you have the *potential* to get messy selvedges because the first warp thread caught by the shuttle might be three, four, five or more threads in from the outermost thread. You see this a little bit with twills and a lot more with satins - anything with long floats has the potential to be a problem. How much of a problem depends in part on your thread size - the bigger the thread, the more noticeable it will be. This is why people sometimes resort to floating selvedges - the floating selvedge thread is caught on every pick, so the edges are neat and even. Floating selvedges are a lot slower to weave since you have to fiddle with the selvedges, so I don't use them. (That said, I typically weave at 40+ epi where this effect is largely invisible. If I were weaving at 20 epi I might do things differently.)
Take-up: as you send the yarn through the warp, two things happen:
(1) if you are using a boat shuttle, the tension needed to start the bobbin rotating tugs at the edge of the fabric where you started the shuttle through. This tends to tighten up the selvedge. Using an end-feed shuttle mostly prevents this from happening, since you don't have the weight of the bobbin tugging at the edge.
(2) As you beat in the weft, the weft goes from being straight as an arrow to over-under, over-under the warp threads. The over-under transition requires some additional thread (how much depends on how thick the warp threads are). This is why you throw the shuttle so the yarn feeds out at an angle to the fell (edge of the woven fabric) instead of straight along it; the extra yarn allows the warp to go over-under, over-under. Nonetheless, there is usually some draw-in at the edges because of this take-up of the weft.
One argument for beating on an open shed (instead of a closed shed) is that doing so reduces draw-in because the yarn continues feeding out from the bobbin as you beat, reducing take-up at the sides and hence reducing draw-in. I can't comment on this because I haven't done enough experimenting, but I thought I'd toss it out there.
Other, more experienced weavers will probably have more to say on the subject, but I hope this is helpful!
Tien
Ellen wrote:
> I probably shouldn't say this, because I really don't know, but I once read somewhere that the difference between the selvedges had to do with the twist of the yarn, which would favour one of the sides. Never quite understood it, though.
Twist of the yarn does matter, sometimes. If the shuttle exits under the edge thread and goes back OVER the edge thread, the weight of the shuttle twists the edge thread slightly in the direction that the shuttle re-enters the shed. (if it exits over and goes under on the return stroke, it twists in the opposite direction.) If the shuttle does this consistently, it will tend to either overtwist or undertwist the edge thread, which can create problems either way. (Floating selvedges don't have this problem because they are hanging loose and can twist/untwist as the twist accumulates.) I *think* the problem is worst with fibers that don't stretch, linen for example, but can't really remember.
Hope that helps,
Tien
Yes, this is very helpful. Thanks Tien.
Spelling: in older British texts (maybe in newer, too?) the s-word is often written selvage. In the same books, one also finds healds and leaves (for heddles and shafts), they sometimes use a templar or stretcher (instead of a temple). Then there is the lay, in which we put the reed... and a million other strange words, of which most can't be found in a modern dictionary.
Several old books with interesting spelling can be found at handweaving.net. Have fun!
We go both ways, having an English wife. So is it colour or color? I know who drives on the wrong side of the road.(g)
Michael
Thanks for a very thorough lesson on selvedges. I use floating selvedges a lot, whenever I use a draft like twill and satin and the like, and often have very neat edges (if I may say so myself, blush-blush). But I do think it was the twisting-part I once read about.
If you're interesting in watching me weave I have video clips posted to my website. This may help with shuttle handling.
Click on Education then Videos
cheers,
Laura
