I started weaving about 6 weeks ago: made a couple things on a homemade RH loom (bless my handy husband's heart!), then a couple things on a borrowed Structo 4H 20" table loom, then a couple things on a borrowed J-Made 24" 4H/6T jack floor loom (bless the local weaver who lent me the harness looms!). Have been working my way through Deb Chandler's book (what a fantastic resource) and am officially in love with weaving. I've even sold a couple of the first things I've woven. (In my professional life, I'm an artist and I love color; fiber is where I get to play when I'm not painting. I've crocheted for years and even sold some of my crocheted work, so have a lovely stash of knitting yarn.)
At some point, obviously, I need to return the borrowed looms to their rightful owner and acquire my own floor loom. Attributes I'm looking for:
- used (cuz I can't afford new!)
- 36" width (seems like a good all-around width without a ginormous footprint)
- good for fabric, scarves, bags, runners, towels, etc.; I'd like to try a rag rug or two at some point, but this is not a priority
Here's where I'd like the group's advice. I've read through a lot of the posts on this site to educate myself on the tradeoffs of various types of floor looms, and have come to the following conclusions:
- Jack looms are most familiar and easy, but I'm also familiar with their disadvantages (let me count the ways the J-Made loom annoys me).
- A CB loom seems better and sturdier, but I want to do all kinds of weave structures, not just balanced...so have ruled this out.
- A CM loom scares me, because of all the work apparently required to tie it up. I know myself well enough to realize I wouldn't use it with such in-depth setup required.
So I've been thinking either a rear-hinged treadle jack loom (eg, Leclerc Nilus II) or a sinking-shed jack loom (eg, Louet David) might be good choices for me...unless I don't understand CB looms well enough and really ought to consider one.
For those who've read this far: THANK YOU! and...any advice? (and BTW...I'm impressed at the generosity of the folks on this site in sharing knowledge and pointers).
Julie in Montana
I'm also a novice when it comes to floor looms, so I can only speak from my very limited experience. I have finished my second project on a Glimakra CM loom and, so far, the warping and tie up have been a breeze. (And weaving on it has been a dream!) I followed the step-by-step instructions in Joanne Hall's "Learning to Warp Your Loom" and it didn't seem difficult. If you're interested in the qualities of a CM loom, I would encourage you to not let the tie up scare you. I had the good fortune of trying a CM loom out first, and that convinced me. I hope you have a chance to do that.
Macomber! It's sturdy, has an easy-on-the-weaver action with treadles mounted in the back for easy leverage, they are downright nice looking, aaaah, let me count the ways I love these looms. They come in various weaving widths like 32", 40", 48", 60". My looms range from 4 to 24 harnesses. My first manufactured loom (before, I was building home-made ones) was a very old Structo Artcraft Floor Loom (which I have learned from this site is very rare) and I still use it for my stoles and baby blankets. But a Macomber has such smoothness, such efficiency, it's like cruising! I work full-time as a weaver, so this is very important to me. When I was still running my weaving school, I had 18 floor looms of every ilk....and, when I worked at the Southwest Craft Center in San Antonio, TX, I repaired/renovated every sort imaginable! Now that I've retired from teaching, the only looms I still have (besides my dear old Struco) are Macombers. These looms can easily be purrrrchased with 4 harnesses and then you can add more, as your interests grow. ALL of the looms I have ever bought for myself, or for the school environment, I bought used...it's like a car ~ once you drive it off the lot, you've lost a ton of resale value. But a used loom has history and good vibes and, if you take care of it, you can sell it after 20-30 years for exactly what you paid for it! If there is any down side to a Macomber, it's that it takes two huge guys and a crane to move them...it's all that metal, I guess, LOL! There is a Macomber Group on this site where you could begin to get a purrrrrspective on this wonderful loom.
Julie,
I always recommend going to a weaving shop and test treadling all the looms there. If you have access to more than one shop then you can likely test out a variety of loom types and manufacturers. I also have a Glimakra CM, and like you was initially scared by the tie up. I found it very easy. I have 8 harnesses and 10 treadles and it only takes me a half hour to completely redo the tie up. You can also do a lot with just changing the order of treadling or the threading from project to project.
At the end of the day, it's mostly down to personal preference. So my advice is try the other style looms so you can make a completely informed decision. If that's not possible, which it often times isn't, then I hope the advice/expereiences offered so far are helpful. Hopefully they will also be followed by other advice and experiences.
Welcome to the wonderful world of weaving,
Erica
I started on a 4S Harrisville with direct tie, which I still enjoy, and have loved my Macombers. Other brands that people like include LeClerc, Dorset, Hammett, Schacht, Purrington, Gilmore, and many others.I have a large (32 shaft Weavebird) countermarch I enjoy, but I am not sure what you will find in Montana for small ones, or how much time you want to spend tieing them up. There are conversion kits for some CM looms which allow you to tie them up from the side, a definite plus as time goes by (if on a well-working loom).
Erica's suggestion to try a loom before buying is a good one. Different people fit different looms - one size doesn't really fit all, at least not without some adjustment. Small Norwoods are way too small for me (at 5'7"). You should be able to find a loom where you can adjust a bench height so that your knees fit well without hitting the cloth or beams but still allow you to use the treadles. When you sit at that point your arms held with forearms horizontal should clear the cloth by an inch or so. Back-hinged treadles give you better leverage.
Get someone knowledgeable to go with you and check that all the pieces are there and that things are not warped. Old looms can be wonderful - or horrible.
At the rate you are progressing, your art background, and the enthusiasm you have, do consider getting a loom with more than 4 shafts. Eight may be a better starting point for you. You can always move up to more than that later if desired.
Cheers,
Laurie Autio
is a GREAT place to try out a BUNCH of looms in one place on the same day! Look for the big dealers, of course, but also look into the booth spaces for vendors who just have a loom for demonstrations and display!
...I am touched and thankful for all the thoughtful replies! Some further notes: the nearest loom shop (at least, that I know of) is located about 130 miles away. We have several nice yarn shops here in Missoula, one of whom carries a few RHs and used table looms, but that's it...so trying out a variety of looms could be quite cost- (gas) and time-prohibitive.
I'm intrigued that so far the advice has been trending to either Glimakra or Macomber. The latter are jack looms, yes? Yet I note that folks rave about them - they must be different than my experience so far of jack looms.
Cat, your advice as a long-time weaver and teacher of weaving is very useful (love the "purrr"s :-). Laurie, thank you for the kind note; I'd considered looking for a 4H loom that would allow me to add more harnesses later, and your note reinforces that. Erica and Karen, I'm a bit less scared of CM tie-up now that I've seen your notes.
There's a cost / availability issue here, though - finding something affordable within, say, a 3-hour drive. The Macombers and Glimakras seem quite pricey, even used (though apparently with good reason).
Cat mentioned Convergence, and it's true: that's a super place to test-drive looms! All the major players are there, so you can visit all the styles and makes of looms in one place. The next Convergence is in Long Beach, California this coming summer (as you can see here).
It's not the only place for loom test drives, though. Many regional weavers' gatherings will also have looms in the Vendor Hall, waiting to be met and treadled. I know there's a regular regional event in Montana (though I don't remember the name of it), and there's a mega-regional event for all the weaving and spinning guilds in the Pacific Northwest (ANWG)-- the next one will be in Bellingham, Washington in 2013 (probably a bit late for your timeline!).
Also, the North American distributors of Glimakra looms are located there in Montana, in Clancy. Joanne Hall is a Weavolution member, is the author of an excellent book on warping and setting up a CM loom, and is a very nice person. I'm sure she'd be happy to give you a tour of the Glimakras. ;-)
As a final note -- loom makers and vendors are good people and generally quite knowledgeable. They're likely to put more emphasis on helping you find the right loom for you and explaining its workings than on making a sale. Don't worry about asking questions or taking your time in the decision -- that's part of the process, and the objective for all parties is that you end up happy with your new loom.
We'll be listening to your progress with great excitement. ;-)
Ruth
Hi Julie
It is best to try out as many looms as possible before you decide on one, but I understand your situation. My mother used to live in Plains, MT and I used to visit her a lot. It's not like you have a dozen weaving shops within walking distance in Missoula. Paradise Fibers is in Spokane, but they only have a couple of jack looms. You might check out the Missoula Weaver's Guild, there might be some members that own different types of looms that you could try out. Also, maybe there are some members of this forum or the Ravelry Warped Weavers Forum that live near you that could help you out.
http://www.northwestweavers.org/MemberGuilds/MGMissoula1.htm
If you really think that you could be happy with 4 shafts for a while, don't rule out a counterbalance loom. A sturdy one can weave anything that you want including being able to hold high tension for good rugs. Most counterbalance looms do an ok job of weaving unbalanced weaves. Sometimes a used CB loom can be found at a very good price.
Good luck and blessings!
Candace
Candace, thank you for the kind advice! the looms I've borrowed were from a member of MAWS (Missoula Area Weavers & Spinners), and I've been checking their classifieds. I'm considering posting a 'wanted' to their classifieds, but wanted this group's advice first.
I do think 4 shafts is plenty for now - I have so much to learn! And for now need to be very frugal (sigh). I was corresponding with someone who has a practically new 36" Schacht Standard for $900 - it's absolutely worth it, of course, but is out of my reach financially at the moment. A local yarn shop owner has a couple of old 36" or 40" CB looms in her garage that she could sell dirt cheap ($100 - $200); they need cleaning and repair, but the price is certainly tempting. I was assuming I couldn't do a 1-3 twill or similar on a CB loom...but it sounds like I can? (so much I need to learn!).
Also, can any CB loom be converted to CM? Seems like I saw that elsewhere on this site or on the interwebs.
Many thanks to all for the good advice!
I've had two vintage CB looms and didn't have a problem getting a large enough shed with unbalanced weaves. The shed wasn't as wide as the balanced weaves, but it worked. (Unbalanced weaves have been woven on these types of looms for centuries.) If someone who knows a lot about looms can look at these older CB looms with you and help you/tell you how to get one of them working, it might be a good way to go. Some repairs can be made cheaply, but others take custom made parts of wood or metal and can be quite costly. You should have someone with you who can figure out what repairs are needed. (Maybe the owner knows). It would be easy to pay $900 for a great newer loom, but there are several other items needed to weave (warping equiptment, shuttles, bobbin winder, extra reeds, etc.) that cost money. Also, if you get an older loom and get it in good working order, you shouldn't have much of a problem selling it if you ever want a larger loom, one with more shafts, or a different type.
Just my opinion
Candace
Oh, and a CB loom that has more than 4 shafts is very rare, and from what I've researched, aren't very efficient. As you know, there are some jack looms that are made so you can add more shafts to them. I believe that most Glimakra-type CM looms can have more shafts added to them
Candace, thank you for setting me straight on the ability to weave unbalanced with a CB loom - good to know! Your point about the other equipment needed to weave is well taken; fortunately, I've been accumulating that already as I've been weaving. Handy Husband has made me a bunch of stick shuttles and some warping pegs; he's promised me a warping board (and an inkle loom, too :-). I bought a cheapie boat shuttle and <drum roll please> avoided buying the pricey bobbin winder by...using a power drill! That's right, I put the bobbins on the drill and it works a charm for winding them up!
But back to the regularly scheduled program here...my concern with the dirt-cheap CB looms the yarn shop owner has is my / her lack of knowledge about them. The experienced weaver from whom I borrowed the jack looms I'm using isn't all that certain about these CB looms either...a bit scary to contemplate taking on the project of rehabbing one of them with so much general ignorance. I'd so much rather buy a loom that's "ready to go"!
I have to agree with Cat, my favorite loom is definitely my Macomber, but it's only one of several I own and different looms are good for different things. Most weavers I know either own, or have owned multiple looms. Every loom has a personality and you have to develop a realtionship with each one (even within the same brand). As others have pointed out, used looms are usually not hard to find and they tend to hold their value well. So, pick one, buy it, use it awhile, and learn about it. Get to know it, and if you don't like it, or grow tired of it, then sell it and try another one. Variety is the spice of life! I hope you will come to know and love several different looms (and maybe dislike a few too) in the course of your weaving. Best of luck!
mrdubyah, I'm lacking space for more than one floor loom of any size (and would be trying my husband's patience, who is already concerned about the footprint a decent loom might take in the room where it will live). That said, it's very possible I'll do exactly what you suggest - try more than one loom - but in my case it has to be serial monogamy rather than polygyny...so I'm trying to get the most optimal equipment to last for a while.
As for trying various looms: I've already used a Structo 4H table loom (a fun tool, but noisy) and now the J-Made 4H floor loom, which I've grown to dislike for a number of reasons...but I use it rather than the Structo because foot treadling is so much faster than hand-treadling. I'm looking for a loom I could love, which does not describe either of the (borrowed) looms I've used so far.
You have referred several times to multiple dislikes with the J-Made loom. Could you expand on those problems? Are they specific to the J-made or to jack looms in general. Is it something that can be fixed or is it inherent in the construction of the loom? It would be a shame to disregard all jack looms because of a problem with one. I am also a new weaver and have a harrisville designs and am still working through some of the problems, but find it very workable.
Jen
Jen, it may be that the things I dislike are specific to the J-Made, or general to jack looms - I'm not experienced enough to know at this point. Here's what I dislike:
- - the way the crank handle falls off (no way to make it stay on)
- - the tie-up system: a huge pain to thread the Texsolv cords through small holes in treadles. I dread re-doing tie-ups on that thing. If I could, I'd have eye-bolts through each treadle hole and just clip the tie-up cords onto those.
- - you have to get up and go to the back of the loom to release the warp when you want to advance the cloth...and then awkwardly advance the cloth beam by hand (crank falls off), while continuing to fiddle with the back beam ratchet.
- - the cloth beam is right under the breast beam, so you can't build up very much weaving.
It's also not very sturdy; tugging on the warp to straighten it while beaming easily tips the whole loom forward. (It's a very compact 24" floor loom; it really looks more like a table loom with a floor stand).
Maybe I'm too picky and this is the way jack looms "just are"...?
I also am a Macomber fanatic, but you should not rule out Glimakras, Toikas, LeClercs, etc., out of hand. Will you need more than 8H/10T? To me that is a minimum. If you are not interested in rugs and space or portability is an issue, try the Mighty Wolf (a jack -- easiest tie-up in the world!)
I've used, and many of my friends use Glimakras. Those friends don't change their tie-up frequently but instead use a "universal" tie-up. For me, the deciding factor was the size of the footprint (Macomber's is smaller, especially if you consider 3-D footprint), and number of harnesses. Thirty years ago it was one of the only looms with a computer dobby.
In hindsight I'm not sure that one needs > 16 harnesses. I use them because I have them. One definitely does not need the computer dobby with hydraulic lifts if your width is < 60" and you have the maximum number of harnesses for the width. (On Macombers, width dictates the number of harnesses because of treadles.) I never added the computer.
All this is a way of saying that you need to have your priorities clear when you go shopping and know the importance of each issue. Having a big heavy loom is a must for rugs, so that may trump everything. Otherwise, size may be the main focus, and 36" is on the small side for B-type Macombers and the high-end Glimakras. Because there are a lot of Macombers out there and because they're so durable, you can probably find a good deal on one. I haven't seen that many great deals on the others. Watch eBay & Craig's list.
Good luck in your hunt!
The issues you mention are not true of all jack looms, especially not the issues with the tie-up and the cloth advance. That sounds to me like a specific problem with a brake, and if you sent photos I bet we could help. The loom tipping when you tug is a function of size, and any of the more massive looms will hold their place. A lot of the looms that fold, though, are made to be moveable and will tip. For that reason they also do not withstand the heavy beating used on rugs, or when my husband weaves (things fly off all but my big Mac).
I use my Macomber pretty much constantly, and my BabyWolf occasionally. I'm tall, and the Macomber is much more easily threaded because I can sit inside it, and the heddles are the right height. This is also true of many of the big CM & CB looms. For its size, weight, and features, the Macomber has a very small footprint when folded, but really isn't moveable. I carry the BabyWolf around in the back of my car.
However, the Macomber is tall and as my family points out, very noisy. The BabyWolf is nearly silent. I'm exiled to a remote corner of the house (laundry room) with my Big Mac, while the BabyWolf can watch movies with the rest of us. A lot of the old CB looms are silent as well as massive.
Sectional beams, while I love them, can be dangerous around children and the clumsy. Before buying a loom with one, you need to consider whether you can protect the rest of the world from the sectional beam.
If the handle falling off is really an issue, though, the Macomber might not be your loom of choice. Macombers can take more than 1 warp beam at a time, offering both different warping options and the ability to feed different warps at different rates. They all use the same removable handle. Since it is only used while beaming the warp, I keep the handle in the tray at the top of the loom. This saves on barked shins and bruised thighs for the passer-by. If this is a pet peeve, though, you might take it into consideration.
You need to go through the motions of threading, tying up, warping, and weaving to see what suits. If you can't tromp a treadle on one end while whrowing and catching the shuttle across the full width, that loom is probably too big for you to use its capacity. If you have to stoop to thread it, it's probably too small.
mneligh, thank you for sharing so much advice about your journey! I doubt I'll ever get past 8 shafts, and that's not a 'must' for my first loom...I have so much to learn and discover just on 4. Dobby looms and gazillions of harnesses are interesting, but I'm just getting started - I want to learn and grow by observing the fascinatingly beautiful interaction of various yarns that happens even in the simplest weave structures.
I don't understand sectional beams/warping at all, so they're certainly not on my list right now. (At the moment I'm just teaching myself with Chandler's book, and kinda think sitting with an experienced weaver would be required to understand some of the finer points of weaving, like sectional warping).
As for the handle falling off: there's nothing wrong with a removable handle - it's just that the J-Made loom handle arrangement is constructed so the handle is barely even 'on' (doesn't really slide/fit over the male part) and falls off if you so much as breathe on it.
And I have to bend over to thread the J-Made - no good way to thread heddles without an aching back on that loom. I didn't know there was any other possibility! Wow, I look forward to trying a good size floor loom.
The nice thing about a used floor loom is they are generally easy to sell without a loss (providing the equipment is in good condition and you purchase at the appropriate price)
You cannot go wrong with a Schacht Mighty wolf or standard, and inexpensive Le'Clerc jack loom. 36" to 48" will probably always be wide enough. 8 shafts and wide widths on a jack loom can be finicky with tension for projects requiring heavy tension. Macombers are great but very heavy to transport.
I have found countermarch to be the most adaptable for all weaving needs no matter how many shafts and how wide and they are easy to treadle and quiet but take up a large footprint (most require you get up from the loom to release tension with the exception of those with worm gears).
As you become more proficient you may find your weaving takes you in a specific direction, then you will know more about the specific type of loom loom you want.
We all have different preferences so try as many as possible. If you see a great deal go for it! You can always resell later if your needs change.
http://bloominloom-dawnmccarthy.blogspot...
Dawn
So just to reply to your items, since I asked....
I have a 40 inch Harrisville design 4 shaft 6 treadle loom which isn't available anymore, but appears to be very much like their current looms. It does have a removable handle, but I haven't had a problem with it falling off at inopportune times. It has a chain tie-up with snaphooks that hook to a bracket on the treadle; quick and easy. The snaps bind up in the chain some times, leading me to think about changing that to texsolve, It has a brake pedal that comes to the front of the loom and is on the side but about even with the treadles, so releasing it is very convenient. The cloth beam is set back from the front. The front breast and back beam are lift-off so you can get in close to thread heddles or sley the reed. The back beam folds up so I can get it through a standard doorway without taking it apart. I haven't tried any rugs on it, because I don't think it would withstand the tension necessary for that. I'm sure there are others out there that have different advantages and handicaps, but so far, it has been a good learning loom.
That being said, looking at all of the beautiful projects here on weavolution I can certainly see me with an 8 shaft in the future, but way down the road (unless chance drops one in my lap). So good luck in your search, and enjoy!
Jen
