A place to post information about Deen looms and their locations.
#1 The loom pictured above is located at Millbrook Village, Delaware Water Gap National Park, New Jersey. It was donated to the Millbrook Village Society by Ellen Hess. Ellen sent an inquiry about the history of this loom to Janet Meany in 1991. The loom came to Ellen from upstate NY, it was owned by the mother of a local art teacher (Alice Austin) in Saint Lawrence Co. (possibly town of Alder Brook?). I'd love to know more about the history of this loom before Ellen owned it, if possible.
#2 I discovered another Deen loom was dontated in February 2009 to the Farmer's Museum in Cooperstown, NY. Here is the link to the blog post: http://thefarmersmuseum.blogspot.com/2009/02/new-acquisitions-deen-loom.html
#3 I noticed a listing for a "Deen Fly Shuttle Loom New Reliance" in the DavenportIowaNews, 4.26.10 craigslist, but that link is now 404. Who was selling this loom and did anyone eventually buy it?
#4 I know from another list source that Ken Colwell, from The Looms, Mineral Point, Wisconsin, owned at least one Deen loom, possibly more, and the collection was sold off upon his passing. That would have been in the mid-1980's. Does anyone know where his looms ended up? I understand he may have owned one of the widest ones.
Please consider posting if you have any information to offer about these or other Deen looms. It would be much appreciated!
This loom reminds me of the Nadeau loom. Alison owns one and may be able to provide pictures.
This is interesting, Sally -- though the photos make me want to jump in and start cleaning and restoring those poor, neglected machines! I keep trying to read the label on the side of the first one you posted, without a lot of success; but it looks like the first line ("Vivance"?) might be the name of the model.
Is it so? Are you on a quest of your own, or helping someone else in theirs? (I know, I'm nosey. :-)
Okay, I've been educating myself tonight... and learned a number of interesting things about Deen looms.
First, though, you asked about loom locations, and I found an online article from an Ohio newspaper profiling a woman with a collection of looms -- including a Deen loom. The article gives contact information (a phone number!) for people who want to know more about her looms.
Another Deen loom appears in this forum discussion. I can't quite tell where or who these people are, but the photos of the loom are beautiful! There's much chat at the top of the page, but if you scroll down you'll be rewarded with the photos. It's a working loom in what looks to be great condition.
On a totally different note, here is a geneology page for James M. Deen, the inventor of the Deen loom. A full account of his life and work appeared in a local historical publication in 1915, and it's quoted fully on this page (scroll down to see it).
Finally, Google Books has a number of copies of "Popular Mechanics" in their online offerings, and Deen Looms has ads in several from the 1947-48 timeframe. This one pleased me very much -- "Make Up To $6.00 An Hour!"
This was an enjoyable search. Insomnia is good for something after all!
I am in transit today so not a lot of time to reply, but your detective work is most helpful!
I am hoping to create a gathering place on line where Deen owners can come to share resources. Personal curosity and the hope we can restore and bring this loom back into operation at the park site were I volunteer are the driving reasons behind my actions.
Now to go follow some of your links and see if they match some of the documentation I have. (thanks!) I am keeping Janet Meany in the loop with anything new that we find, as she is the guru of old looms and keeper of their manuals.
Sally, just curious, why didn't you use the group function for a gathering place rather than the chat forum? Deb Mc
Claudia mentioned that already.
I was thinking this was a "chat topic" rather than a group, and of course, not exactly weaving, but more about the equipment.
You can see the side in a picture at http://www.weaversfriend.com/page1/page9....
Sorry I can't link it properly to open in another tab - I'm on IE today and we know what that means!
The side says The Advance Fly Shuttle Loom, Deen Loom Co. Harlan Iowa USA.
Hmmm - a punch card dobby? Would love to see how one of these works.
The loom pictured on the Janet Meany site for the Deen loom is the SAME loom as pictured at the beginning of this thread. The photo was taken by Ellen earlier in the life of the loom. The photo at the beginning of this thread was taken in its current storage facility.
Above, here is what I believe served as the temple on this loom, the small spring mounted parallel to the front beam.
I thought this modification of a temple was interesting. Small metal rollers with "pins" that were adjustable left or right along the front beam as one faces the loom. Do you think they would work very well?
When I visited the Harlan, Iowa Historical Society to research the Deen looms, I discovered two of the four looms were warped incorrectly. (The weaver forgot to bring the warp up and over the back beam before entering the heddles.) Also, note the green "back beam" is really an "L" shaped bar, and it needs to be rotated into position exactly opposite where it is now, so the warp will smoothly glide over it toward the shafts. The loom shown is the Reliant model, and the same mistake was made on the Advance standing next to it.
The fix is easy. Just loosen the tension, unbolt that green "L" shaped back beam (and bring a box cutter in case the bolt is painted into position). Remove the "L" beam completely, and slip it under the warp (after positioning it correctly). Rebolt, and retension. It might be helpful to have two people assigned to the task, one to hold the warp out of the way with a long stick while the other repositions the L-back beam.
I don't think the Harlan Historical Society has access to a person who is familiar with these loom types or comfortable with their weaving skills to make this correction. If you live in the vicinity and think you can help, please contact them. Considering how rare these looms are, it would be terrific to have them warped correctly for future visitors.
This Deen Loom was in my own backyard! A chance encounter at the New Jersey State Fair in August led me to the 4th generation owner of a Deen loom. I am still collecting information on the history of this particular loom. (The first Deen loom was sold to someone in NJ, but I don't think this one was it.) The current owner has it dissembled to store, but it seems to be all there, plus lots of original shuttles and more.
Here's the first copy of the Deen Loom instruction manual I have seen.
On the loom donated to the Millbrook Village Society, the shuttle boxes had been sliced off. Here is an intact box. Notice the metal flange. I remember reading about this in some of the Deen sales literature this summer. Deen was constantly tweaking the loom design with little improvements, but so far, I can't find any record that links those improvements with specific dates, so we could date a loom based on these features.
Here is Henry, the 4th generation family member, showing me how the Deen shuttle loader works. It was Henry's job after school to load at least 10 shuttles for his father to weave rugs in the evening. Henry told me this loom was originally purchased by his great-grandfather at the turn of the century. (FYI, I shot some movies of Henry demonstrating this process, too.)
ad for a Deen loom for sale that might be of interest to someone http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=156572
I keep forgetting to Google "Deen Looms" from time to time. You never know what may come up.
Looks like this one is for sale in Michigan.
Anyone know who might have bought this loom?
Sorry ladies for not posting sooner! I have been very busy... I am the proud new momma of that Michigan Deen ;) It's a 2 harness flying shuttle, but I’m not sure yet if it’s a New Reliance or a Kwick Weave since it has no identifying labeling. It looks like it had a paper label on the front of the beater but fell off long ago... I need to buy copies of some Deen manuals from Janet Meany (is she still doing that, or does anyone happen to know if a Kwick Weave has a flying shuttle?)
Since I'm new to Weavolution, a little bit about me... my username ‘threadbear’ is adopted from my infamous threadbare socks that always got a little 'pity' cash from my folks when I was in college, my love of teddy bears, and my little family's current situation in these difficult times... The funny thing about this is, I have been looking for a Deen for many years, hopefully a 4-harness with a flying shuttle, but this one popped up hardly ten miles from my home--talk about “Once in a Lifetime”… Many MANY “Thank You’s” 'endorphin' for sharing that link!!! I am hoping this re-investment in a family tradition will blossom into a productive venture, and maybe a Deen museum on our little farm someday (for some odd reason, I am enthralled by the Deen combination of steel and wood, how people lived back then, and the history of it all)... At the very least, we have some ideas how to fix the Universal and I have something creative to do so I won’t go insane with the doldrums of the housework that my husband creates ;))
I now own two Deens; one 4 harness flying shuttle Universal with huge harness cams (for mechanized patterning?) and some of its accessories, that sadly needs some parts and maintenance to the shaft/cam assembly and the flying shuttle mechanism that is causing damage to the beater (why I was looking for another one!) and now this one that I've currently nicknamed 'Rosie' for its bright red paint. Pictures of both coming soon--many, many thanks to everyone who has posted their pictures as they have been very helpful in figuring out what is wrong with these two!
Rosie is very clean and in very excellent condition (she hardly looks used!) with almost new nickel heddles and lots of accessories, including a bunch of already prepped weft, except no warp (wah!!!), but I suspect she may have been repainted, and some new wood parts were hand made (improperly) for the flying shuttle mechanism, it's missing part off the shuttle boxes, and it's also attached to the throwing arms(?) with inner tube..., and a bolt sheared when we moved it (thank you Michigan roads...), so while she has life in her yet with some TLC, some of the historical value has been lost with her missing parts...
My husband and I are in the process of warping and sleying Rosie, but it has been slow going with scrap warp, no warping board (which I wouldn’t know how to use anyway), homemade tools, no experience except what I have gleaned from the weaving blogs (thank you everyone--I've learned a lot just by what you've shared!) and an excited 5-yr-old boy helping! I am a novice (to say the least--the last time I helped Grampa I was probably about 12 yrs old...) and don't belong to a guild (yet!), and have lots to learn. If nothing else, I am at least providing other newbie's a perfect example of how NOT to start weaving and should keep a diary on it... Learning by mistakes is tough and time-consuming, but it is making me think smarter ;)) and though I have had my share of setbacks and trial-by-error, I was almost as excited as my 5-yr-old to get it going for a test run--he can’t wait to pull the beater again and watch that shuttle fly just like I did when I was a kid!
Back to that ‘no warp’ issue… I have been out of a job for too long (over 10 yrs now) and with this new investment we are very tight on funds... can anyone share a resource for 100% cotton warp for less than $4.15+S&H per ½ # tube? I know; 50/50 is stronger, but I am sticking with the family tradition of 100% cotton rugs… (Am I wrong to understand that I can get the same simple pattern as the 4 harness with the 2 harness?)
On top of everything, I realized last night that Rosie's reed is 12 dent vs. the Universal's 8 dent... if I don't change that, my rugs will be 10 inches narrower! Would any kind soul be willing to part with a 5.5" x 35-45" 8 dent reed (even just a crappy beat up one) so I don't have to pull out the warp in the Universal? I have already corrected pattern issues, broken and missing heddles, and broken warp in all four harnesses (any thoughts on what to do with missing warp threads that I have just attached to spools and have on a rack behind the loom, and an 'extra' warp thread? All the broken ones were blue, this one is white) and sleyed the reed once one the U, and twice on Rosie (we tried double-spacing the threads but it was much too wide for the shuttle and the weave and would have probably caused tension issues without unwrapping and re-wrapping the warp on the back beam) and I am going to have to buy all new heddles and maybe a new reed for the U eventually, but I would like to wait until we repair the rest of it...
Well, enough gabbing for now... Looking forward to chatting with and meeting you, (especially other Deen owners and fans!),
P.S. - Sally, those temple rollers seem to work fine, but they sure are painful if you grab one with your bare hand, especially if you grab one to keep yourself from tripping over your sleeping dog...
know that Rosie went to a good home with an enthusiastic learner!
(having trouble posting)
My Dobby Boys:
I know they aren't very close up... I'll post better ones when my camera recharges...
Universal: dirty, but UNIVERSAL is stamped in the metal tag
(this poor old guy has some shabby heddles, and the reed looks like someone was poking a screwdriver through it...)
Rosie: you can see she had a tag at one time...
but her heddles and reed looks almost new... the reed looks like it has a brass frame!
Thanks SO much for posting! I was trying to figure out how to contact the seller to see where the loom ended up, and I posted here at Weavo in a vague hope that someone would respond. Fantastic! I am so happy this loom found a happy home with another Deen loom!
Where in Michigan are you?
Thank you again endorph--Yes, I guess I am a little excited to get back to a family tradition...! Because of illness and other multiple difficulties, it's been a long time since we've had new rugs. I see some of the pictures posted of vintage rag rugs and wonder if any are ones my grandparents made... they did make a great big custom one once that was two or three very long runners sewn together, and I still have several they made over 20 years ago that I use every day.
Yes, Sally, the Universal and Rosie do make quite the matched pair. They even look 'male' and 'female' sitting side by side in our basement here in Lapeer County! As for the seller, he was more than happy to get rid of it, and probably would not have answered you--he was big on his privacy... Another note about the temple rollers... The Universal's look just like the ones in the image you posted (as do both types of shuttles) but Rosie's rollers are different...on a longer arm that's bent... I am not sure how to mount them (I'll post a pic later).
Both of mine need work to the flying shuttle mechanisms (neither one shoots the shuttle very well since each has parts missing) and the harnesses on both go out of timing because they slip off (by the first image you posted Sally, it looks like it may be a common issue?), but both weave nicely with some TLC. I know am not the only one who needs parts... Maybe those museums would be willing to sell off some of their extra pieces to get some others in working order, or at least post more images and help find some fabricators to make some parts. I am having Gowdey Reed make a reed to match the one my grandfather used...anyone hear of them? (Just wondering, for production purposes, if I should look for a working horse...?)
My husband is wondering if we Deen fans should contact someone like Mike and Frank from 'American Pickers' to find them, and parts and literature--I told him Danielle would really be the one talk to, hahaha! The only thing I would be concerned about is valuing them; too high and they become unattainable to people like me; too low, and insurance wouldn't cover loss. To me, they really are priceless. My mother said the Universal has been in our family since at least the early 1950's, but has no idea where it came from because her earliest memories include the loom. I suppose I should go ask Gramma... She's only 94 ;)
I have to check the weft that came with Rosie...it' smells BAD, and might have some wool mixed in it... (and I am freaking out a little that it might have anthrax or smallpox contamination or something because my son and I are suddenly coughing and congested though he could have brought something home from school from all the nice people who share...)
ID label closeup - Universal (I cleaned it some with orange oil...I hope that won't hurt it):
Temple closeup - Rosie (not so happy with the poly/cotton weft 12 dent rug):
Spool rack - each has it's own (and 2 stuffers, but not as nice as Henry's...):
Weft dividers (I assume) for Rosie:
Misc handle (came in box of accessories for Rosie, not sure what it's for...Rosie is missing the beam crank handle but this is not big enough)
...but not sure if they will help you much. (I will check my photos from Henry's manual.) The instructions keep assuring the owner the loom should work great, and if it doesn't, it's the operator's fault!
And as I read them, I can't help but think how overwhelming it would be if you bought one of these looms in the early 1900's and didn't even know the first thing about weaving!
They do make particular mention in the manual of getting the adjustments just right, the picker sticks and the cord for the fly shuttle boxes, commenting that after initial use, the cord may stretch a bit and the knot may need to be adjusted. They also mention the packing of shuttles precisely, or that can cause the shuttle to jump out.
DO contact Janet Meany and see if she can help you. As a resource person for historic rug looms, she'd be a good one to know you have this baby. Somewhere in my notes, she also provided me with information about a couple who restored one of these looms in the midwest. And there is a person in Ohio who has a whole building full of these historic looms, including a Deen.
I am originally from Iowa, so of course, I love American Pickers! I have always wondered why they have never come upon an old loom before. (But then maybe they have, and it didn't make the cut for broadcast.)
LOL! My father says that all the time, and it applies to every aspect of life, from computers to weaving to whatever! If it isn't working, the operator IS doing something wrong; "What?" is the question! I suppose it’s always assumed you know how to do something… IE; I can’t imagine trying to find someone I don't even know all the way across our great country without a computer, but my grandma is still astonished that you can buy things from ‘that internet thing’ because she didn’t even have a TV until after she was married!
I have noticed some of the shuttles Rosie's previous owner packed jump off and fall onto the floor. It makes me feel so guilty—they ARE around 100 yrs old!—so I laid a fluffy blanket underneath to catch them. Since I can't recall just how to use the stuffer, I'm not sure what the correct process is, and my mother is too busy with tax season right now to come 'up north' to help me, so I am going to use hand-held shuttle for now (any chance you still have that video of Henry you mentioned earlier?) I have to hand-manipulate the looms sometimes anyway… As far as picker sticks, and cord for the fly shuttle boxes, I have little idea what you are talking about--shame on me! My grandparents wove rugs since my mother was a small child, and some of us ‘rug-rats’ helped when we were there, but they didn’t use much real weaving terminology beyond warp and heddles… The picker sticks are what my grampa called the throwing arms that propel the shuttle? Mine don’t have any cords around the shuttle boxes… just what looks like old screen door springs and rods (very much jury-rigged) on the U, and Rosie has big steel rods but aren’t connected to the beater setup except with innertube and rags like I said before... I can't believe someone would have made these bent steel rods to replace cord--maybe this one is right and the others are missing these rods? Henry's manual must be for a specific series...? I also see now why my grandfather bolted 4x4s to the Universal—even though they are so heavy, they ‘walk’, Rosie more than the U, and were probably originally supposed to be bolted to the floor.
Thanks for all your help Sally. My “Deen Quest” began in 2001 when I
inherited my Universal (my grandmother is still alive but couldn’t operate it alone and we live too far apart), and for years I have been in intermittent contact with both Janet Meany and Barb Barnett; Barnett Sheep & Wool and NE Iowa Weavers Museum (it’s been so long I can’t even recall which I came in contact with first, and who recommended who!) Barb is another Deen enthusiast, but simply doesn't have time to participate here. It really breaks my heart, because I visited her for one wonderful day at her working museum, but due to some serious issues, Barb needs to sell some of her looms, and among others has several Deens for sale... If anything, I would like to encourage folks to buy some of her products... ;) I have started talking with her and Janet in this attempt to set up a working Deen museum, though I am very short on funds and a functional building...non-existant, in fact—my house isn’t even finished yet, and I can't even afford to join a guild let alone warp and an 8 dent reed! Though I have space, it's land, and my basement, and my basement is certainly not attractive in any way, and is not exactly the best environment for weaving, or historical pieces for sure, and I have no idea how to start a museum! Barb mentioned the major lack of interest in loom history and how it negatively affected her museum... but if it's tied to a school that teaches home fiber arts, that might help--except I have no degree (in anything!) and I am only a novice myself. I haven't heard of the other folks in the midwest or Ohio that you've mentioned...maybe we could post some ads...
Yes, I suppose looms aren't quite as exciting as Mike's bicycles, Frank's juke boxes, or Danielle's cars, but there is some history there with most of them being melted down for scrap for WWI & WWII... How did these few survive?
...maybe we should petition the network to ask them to do a little American history interest story on A.P... ;) I would love it!
My memory did not serve me well... it has been ten or so years! Barb Barnett has 9 or 10 Deens, all different, and maybe one more in the hay mow, and also sold a couple a few years ago... I think Barb is officially "THE" Deen Museum curator--they are one of her favorites! She has many antique looms there at her NE Iowa Weavers Museum, along with spinning wheels and other amazing antique equipment like sock machines, and welcomes guests--you just have to let her know when you are coming (http://barnettsheepandwool.com). She also has some luxuriously soft natural wools and handspun yarns to choose from while you're there--and I know--I bought some! I am planning to visit again this summer...
She looks to be about 2 hours north of my company's headquarters, so I will beat a path to her door (or heated barn loom museum) on my next trip back. Thanks so much for this lead and putting her on my radar!
You are most welcome Sally, but don't you go buying one of those Deens out from under me--hehehe! BTW--I'm pretty sure Barb's barn is heated... ;)
I am not in the market for a Deen, but would certainly like to get ours rehabbed. And if I can put Deen owners together, that helps everyone.
Unfortunately, damage from Hurricanes Irene and Lee have closed the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area indefinitely, so until repairs can be made, I am just in research mode. Also, rumors are in the wind that the Nat'l Park in Lowell may close after March, due to lack of funding. (The museum adjacent is still viable, as far as I know.)
Most importantly, I'd just like to make sure no more Deens get melted down for metal.
A few years back there was a listing on Craig's list, Chicago area, and they didn't even sell for $1 minimum! (I have always wondered what happened to those Deens.)
Well, I found your post, maybe someone else will... Unfortunately, right now, they might get money faster selling them for scrap steel, and since most people wouldn't even know what they are... :((
Much luck to you in restoring that one, and hopefully keeping that museum open. Maybe some flyers to the local schools would bring some renewed interest... In the meantime, my husband and I are going to make some new oak or walnut pickups for Rosie and fit them with eye bolts... I'll let you know how it works!
can be found in the current issue of the Hand Loom Supplement, (#15, April 2012). The publication is produced by Florence Feldman-Wood, editor of the Spinning Wheel Sleuth. If you would like to obtain a copy, please visit www.spwhsl.com.
In two weeks, (if all goes as planned), I will be visiting Barb Burnett to see her barn full of Deen Looms in Plainfield, Iowa—thanks to Threadbear! I will try and take lots of photos to share...
If anyone is interested, please PM (private message) me, and I will put you in touch with the current owner.
The stop at Barb's was unbelievable! She has the biggest collection of Deens I have seen to date and has warped and woven on many of them, so she is attuned to their peculiarities, which I appreciated learning about. And yes, she has a heated AND air-conditioned barn where the looms live, so they have quite a happy home. (It's been in the 90's all week, so having air was greatly appreciated!) I have another lead on a "metal loom" while visiting central Iowa, but not sure I will get to follow through by the end of the week. Stay tuned.
I am so glad you got to go see Barb and her museum!!! I had intended to visit her this summer, maybe work off the price of a loom, but ended up getting a job nannying ;) In the meantime, I've still been looking for an 8 dent reed for Rosie (just not excited about a new reed from Gowdey's...just not 'period' for her). Hope all is well with you, and Barb and her sheep ;). Good luck with your lead!
This just in from Janet Meany. Can anyone help? It'd be great to save another Deen from the scrap metal pile... Send me a PM if interested, and I'll give you the contact info for Dick.
From Janet—"Dick Park has assembled a Deen Loom and he wants to pass it on or he will throw it away. Is there a possibility of a loom rescue? He lives in Nehalem, Oregon" From Dick—"Please let me know if you have a manual and if you know of anybody who might be interested in this loom. It was given to me to scrap out, which I will do if there is not interest.TWILL WEAVEAUTOMATIC FOUR HARNESSFLY SHUTTLE LOOMMADE ONLY BY THE DEEN LOOM COMPANYHARLAN, IOWA
Hi! I have a Deen Loom in my garage. I think it is the Kwik Weave. I'm trying to decide if I should try to restore it or possibly modify it. It did not come with the fly shuttle. I did receive some copies of the pages from the manual, but the pages I received merely assure me that the machine will work... I'm trying to figure out what other pieces it is missing besides the shuttle. Hopefully I will get a chance to glean all the information other have posted. Yes I have checked out the Weaver's Friend web site! Would love to figure out what to do with this loom!
I'll see if I have any photos of the Kwik weave in my files from my summer visit to Barb.
Sally that would be great! Thank you. I find the loom interesting, but just haven't had enough information on it or time to do anything with it. Thanks!
My mother has a Deen Loom - flying shuttle on which she has been making rag rugs for decades. She is 94 years old now and after finishing up the warp on the loom right now, will probably not make any more. My family all have rugs made by her. I live in Cincinnati, Ohio and she is in Akron. Just thought someone would be interested in a Deen Loom which is still "alive and weaving".
Hello morisonc, it's been a while since I've been able to log on to the forum... Is your mother's loom still available??
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I have one of the Deen Looms similar to the maroon one in the log cabin picture, but no text on the side. It is the same iron sides, warp beam style, cloth beam pieces, in a 2 harness. Mine is also a fly shuttle. I always knew it as a Rug Loom -- heavy duty and strong for weaving rag rugs tightly. (You can put a lot of tension on the warp). Also mine is bolted to the floor with the furnished holes because the heavy beating of the weft causes it to creep across the floor. The history of mine is that it was purchased by my great grandfather for his son's 18th birthday (perhaps to plant the seeds for a profession?) I bought it from this great uncle in the early 1970s, picked it up in mid-Illinois and brought it to western Michigan. So I am a 3rd generation rag rug weaver. I use it for rag rug weaving of 27 inch wide rugs for family and friends as a hobby. (the reed is about 38") I can look in my genealogy to approximate the age, but I don't know if it was new when great grandpa purchased it. Also I can take a picture if that is helpful.
That would be terrific! This is a great resource for all Deen Loom owners to connect, so the more looms we document are still around, the better for everyone.
Deen made modifications on his looms all the time, but did not date or number them. So all we have are photos to note these differences. When I visited Barb last summer, she is probably the only person I have met so far who has woven on a lot of the different models with different variations. So it is interesting to hear her take on what works well, and not so well.
My Deen loom had these in the late 70s. I think they were original (?) In fact there are holes all along the front so you can move them depending on the width of the cloth you are making. My dad, a rag rug weaver, did not like the 'prikely' things and had seen several looms modified where they were removed and a double threaded metal pipe replaced them to gently pull out the edges of the cloth on each side as you wove. Half of the exterior of the pipe was pipe threaded 'out' to one side. The other half had reverse threading out to the other side. As your cloth slowly rolls over it, it is held out on each side. It works great for rag rugs. I will work to post a photo of it.
Here are a couple photos of my Deen Advance, 2 harness, fly shuttle, rug loom. The warp beam was modified to hold much longer warp, the temples were replaced with a threaded pipe, and we put new heedles on in the 1970s. Is it maybe from the 1920s? Or later because of the brass lable?
Here are photos of the threaded pipe used instead of temples
This one looks well used AND well maintained/loved!
Your description of the pipe-as-temple adjustment is interesting. It is similar to what I saw at the Harlan Historical society on one of the models.
I was under the impression that the original coil (pipe-like temple) was an earlier idea, and the "prickly" adjustable tension devices came later. One detail that I would like to go back and check on my photos from Harlan was if the threads of the coil changed direction. (I don't think they did. As I mentioned above, it was more of a metal coil suspended in the same place as your pipe, nearly all the way across.)
Have you (or your Dad) compared weaving with a contemporary temple, the original "prickly" temples (do you still have them someplace?), and the newer pipe system, to see which is best?
Some contemporary looms have a modification of the "prickly" temples (AVL has a sandpaper surface beam, for instance). Yes, weavers today DO complain about the abrasiveness. I have not heard of anyone adopting the pipe idea as home loom technology advanced, but there are still a lot of looms out there I haven't seen yet.
Is someone currently weaving on this loom?
Yes, I weave on it but only about 4 items a year. The full time external job keeps me really busy. I just did a 14 ft. hall runner for a Dec. gift. - I will get a photo of it posted.
The pipe threaded temple works well to gently keep the selvedge out where woven, on my rag rugs (a stiff weft). My dad changed it on my moms loom decades ago and it works well. He saw it work well on his sisters loom where, I think, Grandpa redid the temples a long time ago. A plumber or anyone with a pipe threader cna make the pipe. I believe I still have the prickley ones - They look like the other pictured ones in this chat. I would have to dig for them to post a picture.
Grandpa and his daughter, my aunts family, wove rugs as a small family business in the Pigeon, Michigan area. I will look for the 1960s newpaper article and post a scan. Simon Gnagey Weaving - Gnagey Eberly Weaving
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Can anyone identify this deen loom or have one like it? How do you warp the front beam with the fly shuttle rope attacements in the way? thanks attached are pics on my blog: check the page for Jan, 2013. I tried uploading pics to this post but nothing happened.
does anyone have one like this?
To answer your warping question, I am not sure what the problem is, so please bear with me on my response. I don't know how much weaving experience folks have when posting questions like yours, and also who may follow this thread at a later date.
That pipe bar that extends above/on top of the front beam shouldn't be a barrier to warping. (Barb Barnett in Plainfield, Iowa has several Deen looms with that piece mounted in the same way.) I believe it's a temple, not part of your shuttle system. If this is not what you are referring to, your photos don't show exactly what IS in the way (sorry!).
When I saw the looms this past summer, I questioned if that pipe was mounted on the loom correctly, and I still need to search copies of the Deen manuals to check for sure. (Sorry, I was traveling this week and couldn't respond quickly to your posts.) However, it does mimick the raised metal flange with temple-pipe on the front of loumorgan's model.
On the original looms I saw in Harlan, IA, that pipe bar was mounted even with the front beam, and I don't see a benefit of having the warp higher in front than in back. It is more common the other way around —the back beam is raised higher than the front beam to improve the shed on some looms.
FYI, the warp path should come directly up from the sectional warp beam, up and over the back beam, threaded through the heddles, then reed, then over the top of that raised pipe and secure it to the front cloth beam directly, to a rod, or with an apron.
The fly shuttle boxes are beyond the reed to either side of the loom. The shuttle race is the flat wood piece at the bottom of the reed. The rope/cord that hangs down in front of the beater (or "lay" as the old Deen manuals refer to this) would never be in conflict with the warp path as described above.
I hope this helps. Do you weave a lot, or infrequently?
The original Deen manuals can be obtained from Janet Meany at www.weaversfriend.com. IMHO, they are not as helpful for specifics of warping as contemporary sources, which contain lots of images.
Does this answer your question?
This is one of Barb Burnett's Deens, warped and weaving, captured this past summer...See how the warp goes up and over the raised pipe, so there should be no conflict with the ropes underneath?
BTW, look at that HUGE shed on the Deen! The more I look at Barb's looms, the more I think the raised pipe was intentional. As Deen did not number his looms and made modifications all the time (sometimes going back to earlier ideas) it is hard to precisely "date" a Deen!
This is a 4 shaft Deen, that is why Barb is able to weave the twill pattern you see in the fabric.
. Thanksfor this Pic! Do you have one of the back beam also? There is a strange removable add on piece that slips over the back beam made od wood and galvanized metal. Sort of looks like it was to make the warp slide more smoothly over the back beam I think. Unless it was for the fron beam, I'll take a pic tommorrow to show you. I did get hold of Janet Meany and I am sending for what she has available. I would love to see the museum in Iowa!
Ok! Now I think I see the bolts you are talking about. (I put a yellow circle around each one) I have no idea why they would be mounted THERE! They would seem to snag the finished cloth as it goes around this beam, unless like you said, you wove something narrow. Or, a plate was mounted over the top of them.
But what still confuses me, is that on the other looms I have seen, the shuttle switching device was attached to the lay/beater, not the front beam of the loom. (Look at post #11 & #20 for examples, using either a cord or piece of metal).
I scrolled back through all the other photos posted to this thread, and none have those bolts. Do you have access to the person who originally wove on this loom and could ask? I wonder if it was a later modification. Do any of the other rug looms you use have something like this? (I haven't seen it before, but wonder if it might be a regional modification, or just an individual adjustment.)
I checked with Barb, and none of her Deens have this configuration. So I think it was an past owner modification. Neither of us can figure out what they would have to do with the fly shuttle. I would be inclined to remove them, unless you can determine from the previous owner how they were used.
Unfortunately the lady that I bought it from had passed away, her family said she used to make items to sell at ther church bazaars. The only thing that comes to mind since they were not an original part of theloom, is that perhaps she had artritis or something that prevented her from moving from one spot in front of the loom so someone modified it for her. So off they come as I want to weave wider items. There is a weird wood an galvanized metal piece made tofit over the sharp edge of the back beam, and although part of it is painted in the same maroon as the loom, I don't know if it is an original part or made by someone, I'll have to upload a pic.
Here is an 18 foot rug done on the Deen pictured in post 49 and 50 (with the threaded pipe instead of the temples). The weft is what grandpa called 'Hit and Miss' of various colors of cut strips of cotton-poly cloth/carpet rags then I added some 4 or 5 'throw' sections of bright color. It is on a 2 harness with 16 threads to the inch in a reed with 8 dents/inch. The warping includes a side stripe, other areas are called the 1 inch pattern (1 inch of black then 1 inch of white).
Now I need to go measure my hallway, and see if it is 18" long! ;-)
Who designed this warp? I really like the accent stripe on the sides!
The Deen looms at Ken Colwell's estate were sold at two auctions. He had 1200 looms at the old Mineral Point Brewery. The Looms had moved from that brewery to a store downtown Mineral Point. Ken's brother was administrater of the estate. Some were bought by the Smithsonian Museum. I bought two looms, one is the big Deen loom you mentioned before.This was in the Spring of 1991, I paid $2000.00 for it. I was working at restoring it when my Mother died, I simply never went back to the restoration of that huge Deen loom. It takes a gigantic amount of space. I'm sure using that large beater would be very tiring. I do alot of rag rug weaving on my Union Looms. Been rug weaving for 35 years, it's still enjoyable for me!
Sorry, I am trying to load a photo and the software is acting quirky. I will try again tomorrow.
(Yea! Success after a few attempts.)
Gerald, is this the one you have?
Yes, that is the Deen loom I bought from Ken Colwell. I bought it before he moved to the down town store. It's fun to see a photo of the old brewery with the loom as I remember it. Thank you for a trip down memory lane. Ken always amazed me with all his looms. If I remember correctly he had around 6 or 7 Deen Looms. How I miss Ken and all the looms he had. The weaving library he had at his finger tips, and huge amount of weaving paraphinelia. What a resource Ken was! His death and the loss of "The Looms" left me stunned. My Mother died one month after I'd bought it. Then Ken died a month or two after my Mother. Just never went back to restoring the loom.
I have some history on it from Ken. It has always been a Wisconsin Loom. Ken bought it from a man in Wauwautosa. That gentleman bought from a man in the Mineral Point area. I believe the loom is from the 1920's.
Any more questions? Just ask.
I just learned about this one from Janet Meany. Anyone interested? Located in AZ. Comes with some of the cardboard paper patterns
Send me a PM (private message) thru Weavo, and I can pass along the contact information. Sad to say, but if someone doesn't save this one soon, it may be headed for the dump.
here is the other part:
This coming weekend I am doing a presentation on Deen Looms at the Weaving History Conference at the Thousand Islands Arts Center, Clayton, NY. (I am sure you can still register to come if interested).
Saturday (May 17) will be a series of presentations on all sorts of topics: the wool industry, looms of Asia, coverlets, etc., with a dinner keynote by Marjie Thompson. Sunday is a round robin of topics at the Thousand Islands Arts Center, which usually features some aspect of their textile collections.
Hope to see you there! And if you can't make it, check back here at Weavo during the conference weekend. I'll try and post some photos.
The Deen loom in message #72 has found a new home!
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