Deen Looms

#1 The loom pictured above is located at Millbrook Village, Delaware Water Gap National Park, New Jersey. It was donated to the Millbrook Village Society by Ellen Hess. Ellen sent an inquiry about the history of this loom to Janet Meany in 1991. The loom came to Ellen from upstate NY, it was owned by the mother of a local art teacher (Alice Austin) in Saint Lawrence Co. (possibly town of Alder Brook?). I'd love to know more about the history of this loom before Ellen owned it, if possible.

#2 I discovered another Deen loom was dontated in February 2009 to the Farmer's Museum in Cooperstown, NY. Here is the link to the blog post: http://thefarmersmuseum.blogspot.com/2009/02/new-acquisitions-deen-loom.html

#3 I noticed a listing for a "Deen Fly Shuttle Loom New Reliance" in the DavenportIowaNews, 4.26.10 craigslist, but that link is now 404. Who was selling this loom and did anyone eventually buy it?

#4 I know from another list source that Ken Colwell, from The Looms, Mineral Point, Wisconsin, owned at least one Deen loom, possibly more, and the collection was sold off upon his passing. That would have been in the mid-1980's. Does anyone know where his looms ended up? I understand he may have owned one of the widest ones.

Please consider posting if you have any information to offer about these or other Deen looms. It would be much appreciated!

Sally

This loom reminds me of the Nadeau loom.  Alison owns one and may be able to provide pictures.

Claudia

This is interesting, Sally -- though the photos make me want to jump in and start cleaning and restoring those poor, neglected machines!  I keep trying to read the label on the side of the first one you posted, without a lot of success; but it looks like the first line ("Vivance"?) might be the name of the model.

Is it so?  Are you on a quest of your own, or helping someone else in theirs?  (I know, I'm nosey. :-)

Ruth

Okay, I've been educating myself tonight... and learned a number of interesting things about Deen looms.

First, though, you asked about loom locations, and I found an online article from an Ohio newspaper profiling a woman with a collection of looms -- including a Deen loom.  The article gives contact information (a phone number!) for people who want to know more about her looms.

Another Deen loom appears in this forum discussion.  I can't quite tell where or who these people are, but the photos of the loom are beautiful!  There's much chat at the top of the page, but if you scroll down you'll be rewarded with the photos.  It's a working loom in what looks to be great condition.

On a totally different note, here is a geneology page for James M. Deen, the inventor of the Deen loom.  A full account of his life and work appeared in a local historical publication in 1915, and it's quoted fully on this page (scroll down to see it).

Finally, Google Books has a number of copies of "Popular Mechanics" in their online offerings, and Deen Looms has ads in several from the 1947-48 timeframe.  This one pleased me very much -- "Make Up To $6.00 An Hour!"

This was an enjoyable search.  Insomnia is good for something after all!

Ruth

Ruth,

I am in transit today so not a lot of time to reply, but your detective work is most helpful!

I am hoping to create a gathering place on line where Deen owners can come to share resources. Personal curosity and the hope we can restore and bring this loom back into operation at the park site were I volunteer are the driving reasons behind my actions.

Now to go follow some of your links and see if they match some of the documentation I have. (thanks!) I am keeping Janet Meany in the loop with anything new that we find, as she is the guru of old looms and keeper of their manuals.

Sally

Sally, just curious, why didn't you use the group function for a gathering place rather than the chat forum? Deb Mc

Claudia mentioned that already.

I was thinking this was a "chat topic" rather than a group, and of course, not exactly weaving, but more about the equipment. 

S

You can see the side in a picture at http://www.weaversfriend.com/page1/page9....

Sorry I can't link it properly to open in another tab - I'm on IE today and we know what that means!

The side says The Advance Fly Shuttle Loom, Deen Loom Co. Harlan Iowa USA.

Hmmm - a punch card dobby? Would love to see how one of these works.

The loom pictured on the Janet Meany site for the Deen loom is the SAME loom as pictured at the beginning of this thread. The photo was taken by Ellen earlier in the life of the loom. The photo at the beginning of this thread was taken in its current storage facility.

Sally

Above, here is what I believe served as the temple on this loom, the small spring mounted parallel to the front beam.

I thought this modification of a temple was interesting. Small metal rollers with "pins" that were adjustable left or right along the front beam as one faces the loom. Do you think they would work very well?

When I visited the Harlan, Iowa Historical Society to research the Deen looms, I discovered two of the four looms were warped incorrectly. (The weaver forgot to bring the warp up and over the back beam before entering the heddles.) Also, note the green "back beam" is really an "L" shaped bar, and it needs to be rotated into position exactly opposite where it is now, so the warp will smoothly glide over it toward the shafts. The loom shown is the Reliant model, and the same mistake was made on the Advance standing next to it.

The fix is easy. Just loosen the tension, unbolt that green "L" shaped back beam (and bring a box cutter in case the bolt is painted into position). Remove the "L" beam completely, and slip it under the warp (after positioning it correctly). Rebolt, and retension. It might be helpful to have two people assigned to the task, one to hold the warp out of the way with a long stick while the other repositions the L-back beam.

I don't think the Harlan Historical Society has access to a person who is familiar with these loom types or comfortable with their weaving skills to make this correction. If you live in the vicinity and think you can help, please contact them. Considering how rare these looms are, it would be terrific to have them warped correctly for future visitors.

Sally

This Deen Loom was in my own backyard! A chance encounter at the New Jersey State Fair in August led me to the 4th generation owner of a Deen loom. I am still collecting information on the history of this particular loom. (The first Deen loom was sold to someone in NJ, but I don't think this one was it.) The current owner has it dissembled to store, but it seems to be all there, plus lots of original shuttles and more.

Here's the first copy of the Deen Loom instruction manual I have seen. 

On the loom donated to the Millbrook Village Society, the shuttle boxes had been sliced off. Here is an intact box. Notice the metal flange. I remember reading about this in some of the Deen sales literature this summer. Deen was constantly tweaking the loom design with little improvements, but so far, I can't find any record that links those improvements with specific dates, so we could date a loom based on these features. 

Here is Henry, the 4th generation family member, showing me how the Deen shuttle loader works. It was Henry's job after school to load at least 10 shuttles for his father to weave rugs in the evening. Henry told me this loom was originally purchased by his great-grandfather at the turn of the century. (FYI, I shot some movies of Henry demonstrating this process, too.)

ad for a Deen loom for sale that might be of interest to someone http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=156572

I keep forgetting to Google "Deen Looms" from time to time. You never know what may come up.

Looks like this one is for sale in Michigan.

Anyone know who might have bought this loom?

Sorry ladies for not posting sooner!  I have been very busy... I am the proud new momma of that Michigan Deen  ;)  It's a 2 harness flying shuttle, but I’m not sure yet if it’s a New Reliance or a Kwick Weave since it has no identifying labeling.  It looks like it had a paper label on the front of the beater but fell off long ago...  I need to buy copies of some Deen manuals from Janet Meany (is she still doing that, or does anyone happen to know if a Kwick Weave has a flying shuttle?)

Since I'm new to Weavolution, a little bit about me... my username ‘threadbear’ is adopted from my infamous threadbare socks that always got a little 'pity' cash from my folks when I was in college, my love of teddy bears, and my little family's current situation in these difficult times... The funny thing about this is, I have been looking for a Deen for many years, hopefully a 4-harness with a flying shuttle, but this one popped up hardly ten miles from my home--talk about “Once in a Lifetime”… Many MANY “Thank You’s” 'endorphin' for sharing that link!!!  I am hoping this re-investment in a family tradition will blossom into a productive venture, and maybe a Deen museum on our little farm someday (for some odd reason, I am enthralled by the Deen combination of steel and wood, how people lived back then, and the history of it all)... At the very least, we have some ideas how to fix the Universal and I have something creative to do so I won’t go insane with the doldrums of the housework that my husband creates ;))

I now own two Deens; one 4 harness flying shuttle Universal with huge harness cams (for mechanized patterning?) and some of its accessories, that sadly needs some parts and maintenance to the shaft/cam assembly and the flying shuttle mechanism that is causing damage to the beater (why I was looking for another one!) and now this one that I've currently nicknamed 'Rosie' for its bright red paint.  Pictures of both coming soon--many, many thanks to everyone who has posted their pictures as they have been very helpful in figuring out what is wrong with these two!

Rosie is very clean and in very excellent condition (she hardly looks used!) with almost new nickel heddles and lots of accessories, including a bunch of already prepped weft, except no warp (wah!!!), but I suspect she may have been repainted, and some new wood parts were hand made (improperly) for the flying shuttle mechanism, it's missing part off the shuttle boxes, and it's also attached to the throwing arms(?) with inner tube..., and a bolt sheared when we moved it (thank you Michigan roads...), so while she has life in her yet with some TLC, some of the historical value has been lost with her missing parts...  

My husband and I are in the process of warping and sleying Rosie, but it has been slow going with scrap warp, no warping board (which I wouldn’t know how to use anyway), homemade tools, no experience except what I have gleaned from the weaving blogs (thank you everyone--I've learned a lot just by what you've shared!) and an excited 5-yr-old boy helping!  I am a novice (to say the least--the last time I helped Grampa I was probably about 12 yrs old...) and don't belong to a guild (yet!), and have lots to learn.  If nothing else, I am at least providing other newbie's a perfect example of how NOT to start weaving and should keep a diary on it... Learning by mistakes is tough and time-consuming, but it is making me think smarter ;)) and though I have had my share of setbacks and trial-by-error, I was almost as excited as my 5-yr-old to get it going for a test run--he can’t wait to pull the beater again and watch that shuttle fly just like I did when I was a kid!  

Back to that ‘no warp’ issue… I have been out of a job for too long (over 10 yrs now) and with this new investment we are very tight on funds... can anyone share a resource for 100% cotton warp for less than $4.15+S&H per ½ # tube?  I know; 50/50 is stronger, but I am sticking with the family tradition of 100% cotton rugs…  (Am I wrong to understand that I can get the same simple pattern as the 4 harness with the 2 harness?)

On top of everything, I realized last night that Rosie's reed is 12 dent vs. the Universal's 8 dent...  if I don't change that, my rugs will be 10 inches narrower!  Would any kind soul be willing to part with a 5.5" x 35-45" 8 dent reed (even just a crappy beat up one) so I don't have to pull out the warp in the Universal?  I have already corrected pattern issues, broken and missing heddles, and broken warp in all four harnesses (any thoughts on what to do with missing warp threads that I have just attached to spools and have on a rack behind the loom, and an 'extra' warp thread? All the broken ones were blue, this one is white) and sleyed the reed once one the U, and twice on Rosie (we tried double-spacing the threads but it was much too wide for the shuttle and the weave and would have probably caused tension issues without unwrapping and re-wrapping the warp on the back beam) and I am going to have to buy all new heddles and maybe a new reed for the U eventually, but I would like to wait until we repair the rest of it... 

Well, enough gabbing for now... Looking forward to chatting with and meeting you, (especially other Deen owners and fans!),

threadbear

P.S. - Sally, those temple rollers seem to work fine, but they sure are painful if you grab one with your bare hand, especially if you grab one to keep yourself from tripping over your sleeping dog...

know that Rosie went to a good home with an enthusiastic learner!

(having trouble posting)

Rosie:

The Universal:

My Dobby Boys:

I know they aren't very close up... I'll post better ones when my camera recharges...

Universal: dirty, but UNIVERSAL is stamped in the metal tag

(this poor old guy has some shabby heddles, and the reed looks like someone was poking a screwdriver through it...)

Rosie: you can see she had a tag at one time...

but her heddles and reed looks almost new... the reed looks like it has a brass frame!

Threadbear,

Thanks SO much for posting! I was trying to figure out how to contact the seller to see where the loom ended up, and I posted here at Weavo in a vague hope that someone would respond. Fantastic! I am so happy this loom found a happy home with another Deen loom!

Where in Michigan are you? 

Thank you again endorph--Yes, I guess I am a little excited to get back to a family tradition...!  Because of illness and other multiple difficulties, it's been a long time since we've had new rugs.  I see some of the pictures posted of vintage rag rugs and wonder if any are ones my grandparents made... they did make a great big custom one once that was two or three very long runners sewn together, and I still have several they made over 20 years ago that I use every day.

Yes, Sally, the Universal and Rosie do make quite the matched pair.  They even look 'male' and 'female' sitting side by side in our basement here in Lapeer County! As for the seller, he was more than happy to get rid of it, and probably would not have answered you--he was big on his privacy... Another note about the temple rollers... The Universal's look just like the ones in the image you posted (as do both types of shuttles) but Rosie's rollers are different...on a longer arm that's bent... I am not sure how to mount them (I'll post a pic later).

Both of mine need work to the flying shuttle mechanisms (neither one shoots the shuttle very well since each has parts missing) and the harnesses on both go out of timing because they slip off (by the first image you posted Sally, it looks like it may be a common issue?), but both weave nicely with some TLC.  I know am not the only one who needs parts... Maybe those museums would be willing to sell off some of their extra pieces to get some others in working order, or at least post more images and help find some fabricators to make some parts.  I am having Gowdey Reed make a reed to match the one my grandfather used...anyone hear of them? (Just wondering, for production purposes, if I should look for a working horse...?)

My husband is wondering if we Deen fans should contact someone like Mike and Frank from 'American Pickers' to find them, and parts and literature--I told him Danielle would really be the one talk to, hahaha!  The only thing I would be concerned about is valuing them; too high and they become unattainable to people like me; too low, and insurance wouldn't cover loss.  To me, they really are priceless.  My mother said the Universal has been in our family since at least the early 1950's, but has no idea where it came from because her earliest memories include the loom.  I suppose I should go ask Gramma... She's only 94 ;)

I have to check the weft that came with Rosie...it' smells BAD, and might have some wool mixed in it... (and I am freaking out a little that it might have anthrax or smallpox contamination or something because my son and I are suddenly coughing and congested though he could have brought something home from school from all the nice people who share...)

ID label closeup - Universal (I cleaned it some with orange oil...I hope that won't hurt it):

Temple closeup - Rosie (not so happy with the poly/cotton weft 12 dent rug):

Spool rack - each has it's own (and 2 stuffers, but not as nice as Henry's...):

Weft dividers (I assume) for Rosie:

Misc handle (came in box of accessories for Rosie, not sure what it's for...Rosie is missing the beam crank handle but this is not big enough)

...but not sure if they will help you much. (I will check my photos from Henry's manual.) The instructions keep assuring the owner the loom should work great, and if it doesn't, it's the operator's fault!

And as I read them, I can't help but think how overwhelming it would be if you bought one of these looms in the early 1900's and didn't even know the first thing about weaving!

They do make particular mention in the manual of getting the adjustments just right, the picker sticks and the cord for the fly shuttle boxes, commenting that after initial use, the cord may stretch a bit and the knot may need to be adjusted. They also mention the packing of shuttles precisely, or that can cause the shuttle to jump out.

DO contact Janet Meany and see if she can help you. As a resource person for historic rug looms, she'd be a good one to know you have this baby. Somewhere in my notes, she also provided me with information about a couple who restored one of these looms in the midwest. And there is a person in Ohio who has a whole building full of these historic looms, including a Deen.

I am originally from Iowa, so of course, I love American Pickers! I have always wondered why they have never come upon an old loom before. (But then maybe they have, and it didn't make the cut for broadcast.) 

LOL! My father says that all the time, and it applies to every aspect of life, from computers to weaving to whatever! If it isn't working, the operator IS doing something wrong; "What?" is the question! I suppose it’s always assumed you know how to do something… IE; I can’t imagine trying to find someone I don't even know all the way across our great country without a computer, but my grandma is still astonished that you can buy things from ‘that internet thing’ because she didn’t even have a TV until after she was married!

I have noticed some of the shuttles Rosie's previous owner packed jump off and fall onto the floor. It makes me feel so guilty—they ARE around 100 yrs old!—so I laid a fluffy blanket underneath to catch them. Since I can't recall just how to use the stuffer, I'm not sure what the correct process is, and my mother is too busy with tax season right now to come 'up north' to help me, so I am going to use hand-held shuttle for now (any chance you still have that video of Henry you mentioned earlier?)  I have to hand-manipulate the looms sometimes anyway… As far as picker sticks, and cord for the fly shuttle boxes, I have little idea what you are talking about--shame on me! My grandparents wove rugs since my mother was a small child, and some of us ‘rug-rats’ helped when we were there, but they didn’t use much real weaving terminology beyond warp and heddles… The picker sticks are what my grampa called the throwing arms that propel the shuttle? Mine don’t have any cords around the shuttle boxes… just what looks like old screen door springs and rods (very much jury-rigged) on the U, and Rosie has big steel rods but aren’t connected to the beater setup except with innertube and rags like I said before... I can't believe someone would have made these bent steel rods to replace cord--maybe this one is right and the others are missing these rods? Henry's manual must be for a specific series...? I also see now why my grandfather bolted 4x4s to the Universal—even though they are so heavy, they ‘walk’, Rosie more than the U, and were probably originally supposed to be bolted to the floor.

Thanks for all your help Sally. My “Deen Quest” began in 2001 when I
inherited my Universal (my grandmother is still alive but couldn’t operate it alone and we live too far apart), and for years I have been in intermittent contact with both Janet Meany and Barb Barnett; Barnett Sheep & Wool and NE Iowa Weavers Museum (it’s been so long I can’t even recall which I came in contact with first, and who recommended who!) Barb is another Deen enthusiast, but simply doesn't have time to participate here. It really breaks my heart, because I visited her for one wonderful day at her working museum, but due to some serious issues, Barb needs to sell some of her looms, and among others has several Deens for sale... If anything, I would like to encourage folks to buy some of her products... ;) I have started talking with her and Janet in this attempt to set up a working Deen museum, though I am very short on funds and a functional building...non-existant, in fact—my house isn’t even finished yet, and I can't even afford to join a guild let alone warp and an 8 dent reed! Though I have space, it's land, and my basement, and my basement is certainly not attractive in any way, and is not exactly the best environment for weaving, or historical pieces for sure, and I have no idea how to start a museum!  Barb mentioned the major lack of interest in loom history and how it negatively affected her museum... but if it's tied to a school that teaches home fiber arts, that might help--except I have no degree (in anything!) and I am only a novice myself.  I haven't heard of the other folks in the midwest or Ohio that you've mentioned...maybe we could post some ads...

Yes, I suppose looms aren't quite as exciting as Mike's bicycles, Frank's juke boxes, or Danielle's cars, but there is some history there with most of them being melted down for scrap for WWI & WWII... How did these few survive?

...maybe we should petition the network to ask them to do a little American history interest story on A.P... ;)  I would love it!

My memory did not serve me well... it has been ten or so years!  Barb Barnett has 9 or 10 Deens, all different, and maybe one more in the hay mow, and also sold a couple a few years ago... I think Barb is officially "THE" Deen Museum curator--they are one of her favorites!  She has many antique looms there at her NE Iowa Weavers Museum, along with spinning wheels and other amazing antique equipment like sock machines, and welcomes guests--you just have to let her know when you are coming (http://barnettsheepandwool.com).  She also has some luxuriously soft natural wools and handspun yarns to choose from while you're there--and I know--I bought some!  I am planning to visit again this summer...

She looks to be about 2 hours north of my company's headquarters, so I will beat a path to her door (or heated barn loom museum) on my next trip back. Thanks so much for this lead and putting her on my radar! 

Sally

You are most welcome Sally, but don't you go buying one of those Deens out from under me--hehehe!  BTW--I'm pretty sure Barb's barn is heated... ;) 

I am not in the market for a Deen, but would certainly like to get ours rehabbed. And if I can put Deen owners together, that helps everyone.

Unfortunately, damage from Hurricanes Irene and Lee have closed the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area indefinitely, so until repairs can be made, I am just in research mode. Also, rumors are in the wind that the Nat'l Park in Lowell may close after March, due to lack of funding. (The museum adjacent is still viable, as far as I know.)

Most importantly, I'd just like to make sure no more Deens get melted down for metal.

A few years back there was a listing on Craig's list, Chicago area, and they didn't even sell for $1 minimum! (I have always wondered what happened to those Deens.)

Well, I found your post, maybe someone else will... Unfortunately, right now, they might get money faster selling them for scrap steel, and since most people wouldn't even know what they are... :((

Much luck to you in restoring that one, and hopefully keeping that museum open. Maybe some flyers to the local schools would bring some renewed interest... In the meantime, my husband and I are going to make some new oak or walnut pickups for Rosie and fit them with eye bolts... I'll let you know how it works!